Math is Hard! (age question)

[darkrose]

How old is Loghain at the beginning of Origins? How old was Maric when he disappeared? (I know DG has confirmed that he's dead, but for fic-writing purposes, as far as I'm concerned he's only comic-book dead.)

The inconsistency of dating between novels and game makes my poor little non-mathematically-inclined brain hurt.

Comments

[amhran_comhrac]

Actually, The Calling had misprints in the first edition (and ebook), which were changed in later editions. It took place in 9:10 Dragon, so the elf baby would be 19.
See his comments in this thread. (it's the filtered version so you just get the first post and any bioware posts. FYI, to do that if you're not on the main page of the forum looking at the thread title just add "&if=8" without the quotes to the end of the URL)

I suspect the comments from Loghain about how Maric would have shamed Rowan by acknowledging him were either about her memory or, more likely, a fuckup from when Alistair was supposed to be a disillusioned warrior in his early 30s that should have been changed or removed but got overlooked. (they scrapped and rewrote his entire character, but much of the game was done otherwise- it was because the first Alistair tested poorly)

This is his comments on a timeline someone came up with from that thread:

emynii wrote...
9:00 - Start of the Dragon Age
9:02 - Death of Meghren,
9:03 - Maric Crowned King (Age 24)
9:05 - Cailan Born
9:08 - Queen Rowan Dies
9:10 - The Calling (Cailan age 5, Maric age 31)
9:25 - Maric Dissapears (Age 46), Cailan takes throne (Age 20)
9:30 - Modern Dragon Age Game

I'm gun-shy of confirming any timeline at this point, and I don't have my notes from the novel on hand -- but at a glance this doesn't look too far off.

[niniane]

I'm still going for the Calling all just being a terrible, terrible nightmare...

And I will eternally be convinced that Alistair = 21-25...no matter what canon says. ;) (Seriously, his crows feet by the end of the game make me think that he MUST be 27! And it totally makes sense for Maric to be like "huh, Rowan is pregnant. Time to go bang a serving wench...")

[darkrose]

And it totally makes sense for Maric to be like "huh, Rowan is pregnant. Time to go bang a serving wench..."

I just can't see it. For one thing, the serving wench would have to take off his pants and sit on him, because Maric doesn't take initiative. Also, he has to be the hero of his personal narrative, and the king who takes advantage of someone who effectively can't say no doesn't fit that. Add in the fact that he's being unfair to Rowan and knows it; I can't buy him cheating on her.

[niniane]

You do make a good point about lack of Maric initiative. Hmmm...but it could be a very aggressive serving maid? I do think that he'd guilt trip over Rowan. But at the same time, he was betraying her by going after Katriel as well. It seems possible. I can see an upset Maric, a frisky servant girl (who totally was after the king, as I'm sure a lot of women were), and an "oops" pregnancy.

[prisoner_24601]

I think that the king, any king, would have women constantly trying to have women getting into his pants. Especially hot, miserable, broody, young kings. So that's my theory anyway.

[niniane]

Yes. I always saw that as the reason Cailan "had his women" despite that everyone talks about how much he adores Anora in game, and he's crumpled up the letter telling him to divorce her. I figure that the intentions may be good, but, OMG, when a gorgeous young thing comes up to you and is totally up for anything, any time, anywhere...and you haven't seen your wife in a month...

Well, not everyone's going to break down and give in. But it would be hard to be stoic under those circumstances.

[scarylady]

If Cailan 'had his women' then it must have come from his Guerrin genes. It sure as hell didn't come from the Theirin side, they have to be practically ambushed.

[niniane]

Well...Alistair does.

Calenhad, though...http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_Entry:_The_Legend_of_Calenhad,_Chapter_3

Not to mention, Maric goes after Fiona + Katriel. Admittedly, he wasn't married to Rowan at the time. But he was engaged to her while he was banging Katriel every time her back was turned. It's hard for me to see Maric as being entirely immune to the siren song of pretty elf chicks.

[scarylady]

As I remember (and it's a while since I read it) Katriel basically jumped him.

[amhran_comhrac]

While he was in an infirmary, no less!

[amhran_comhrac]

The thing with his Katriel fling was that he didn't know Rowan actually had romantic feelings for him. Their marriage had been arranged when they were children, by his mother and her father to cement their alliance. The two had always been buddies and I got the impression he thought that hadn't changed.

[niniane]

I'll agree that it is possible that Maric was all "eh, it doesn't matter, since you don't like me". But surely at some point he...noticed? I mean, maybe not, but it still seems kind of cold to sleep with one person when engaged to another and not even talk about it first...

I'm not saying that Maric is this horrible person, but it's hard for me to see him either as this paragon of virtue where he's so great and noble and faithful that he would *never* so much as consider cheating on his wife (who he didn't love, at least in TST).

Even Alistair is willing to have a menage a trois with Isabella or marry Anora (if you make him). And he's sure as hell willing to cheat on his wife (with you) if you take the mistress ending. For all that, he's more than willing to drop you like a hot poker if you save Loghain, but will still marry Anora (if hardened), despite that he describes her as being "just like her father". I mean, seriously...I'm not sure that he's this perfect paragon of virtue, either. (Not to mention that he'll let you do horrible things left and right in game rather than storm off and go "screw you". Yeah, I know, game mechanics. But it still unnerves me that with a persuasion check he registers -5 at killing the city elves, -0 at slaughtering the Dalish, and not that much from what I can remember at desecrating the ashes.)

I'm willing to say, "yeah, it's possible that Maric was perfectly faithful to Rowan". But it doesn't seem that implausible to say, either, "Yeah, Alistair's the son of a serving wench that Maric knocked up while still married to Rowan". I mean, ultimately? If Alistair is *not* Goldanna's half brother, there's been a major conspiracy going on...

[darkrose]

Katriel totally jumps Maric. So does Fiona--literally.

[darkrose]

I have no problem assuming that Cailan was catting around. I just don't see it with Maric, and especially not if it means cheating on Rowan. Aside from everything else, Loghain would kick his ass.

[sarahsponda]

I wonder if that's one of the reasons Loghain dislikes Alistair so much, though.

[darkrose]

It certainly seems like that was the direction they were going before Alistair got retconned. For my personal canon, though, I've decided that Loghain isn't stupid, and that he can do math. Alistair is the right age to have been conceived during Maric's trip to the Deep Roads with the Wardens. There was a pretty elf on that trip. Maric has an elf fetish (and apparently, a Deep Roads sex kink). This leads to the logical conclusion that Maric had a bastard with an Orlesian elf Grey Warden mage. I'm not sure it would be possible for Fiona to have more strikes against her in Loghain's mind.

[elysium_fic]

everyone talks about how much he adores Anora in game

Who talks about this, besides Anora pre-Landsmeet? I've been taking meticulous videos of every conversation cutscene, often reloading and pursuing different dialogue choices to be sure I didn't miss anything, and with everything except the Deep Roads and the Landsmeet done, there hasn't been so much as a peep about him adoring Anora.


he's crumpled up the letter telling him to divorce her

Actually he crumpled the letter from Celene not the one from Eamon.

[darkrose]

The only other person I can think of who mentions it is Eamon, when he talks in his incredibly condescending way about how Anora had Cailan wrapped around her finger from the time they were children.

[niniane]

Um, Eamon says something about how Cailan was a "good boy" had no chance after Anora "batted her eyes at him". Loghain remarks that Anora "led Cailan around like a puppy on a leash", and Wynne says, "Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you." (Although how Wynne would know is so far beyond me as to be totally baffling.)

I mean, it's possible that they're all wrong. Also possible that they were mistaking Cailan's affection for something else. *shrugs* I'll admit that I find Anora as a femme fatale almost laughable, don't think that Wynne is a great observer of the Anora-Cailan marriage, *and* think it's entirely possible that either Loghain wanted to believe they were happier than they were *or* was referring more to them playing a kids than any real affection. But...it is remarked on.

[elysium_fic]

Okay, thanks. It's been a while since I've been to the Landsmeet portion of the game and I haven't gotten there yet on my "vid-cap EVERYTHING" play-through (seriously, I have, like, 400 videos already) so it's possible I just haven't seen these references yet.

[niniane]

Oh, sorry. But still...it's possibly meant to be read as a sign (otherwise, why mention that it's crumbled!) that Cailan's not 100% happy with this plan of "get rid of Anora, marry Celene". Again, that would be my read on it. It's possible to interpret it differently.

[elysium_fic]

I figure the crumpled note can go one of two ways.

1) He's angry and frustrated that Celene isn't coming (likely this was how it was intended to be interpreted, given the axed Celene subplot, and the "crumpled" aspect is simple another one of those things that didn't get fixed in rewrites.

2) He's disgusted at Celene's hinting about a marriage alliance. Whether that's due to his devotion to Anora, or the fact that even Cailan isn't idiot enough to fail to see that attempting to marry the empress of Orlais would go over like a pregnant pole vaulter is completely open to interpretation.

[scarylady]

the serving wench would have to take off his pants and sit on him, because Maric doesn't take initiative

I have my hand clamped over my mouth so I don't wake my husband with laughing. These Theirin boys are a total riot.

[amhran_comhrac]

And confirmed by Alistair!

* Leliana: You are Maric's son; you are the rightful king of Ferelden.
* Alistair: I am the son of a star-struck maid and an indiscreet man who just happened to be king. Look, I can't be king. Some days I have trouble figuring out which boot goes on which foot.
* Leliana: Complete fools are made leaders of kingdoms all the time, and you're not a complete fool.
* Alistair: What an utter relief.
* Leliana: And don't worry about the boots. Kings don't need to dress themselves. that's what advisors are for, isn't it?
* Alistair: And star-struck maids, apparently.

[scarylady]

Only a clueless Theirin boy like Alistair would make the mistake of thinking that maids dress Kings. Clearly they concentrate on undressing them. Duh.