Math is Hard! (age question)

[darkrose]

How old is Loghain at the beginning of Origins? How old was Maric when he disappeared? (I know DG has confirmed that he's dead, but for fic-writing purposes, as far as I'm concerned he's only comic-book dead.)

The inconsistency of dating between novels and game makes my poor little non-mathematically-inclined brain hurt.

Comments

[niniane]

Yes. I always saw that as the reason Cailan "had his women" despite that everyone talks about how much he adores Anora in game, and he's crumpled up the letter telling him to divorce her. I figure that the intentions may be good, but, OMG, when a gorgeous young thing comes up to you and is totally up for anything, any time, anywhere...and you haven't seen your wife in a month...

Well, not everyone's going to break down and give in. But it would be hard to be stoic under those circumstances.

[scarylady]

If Cailan 'had his women' then it must have come from his Guerrin genes. It sure as hell didn't come from the Theirin side, they have to be practically ambushed.

[niniane]

Well...Alistair does.

Calenhad, though...http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_Entry:_The_Legend_of_Calenhad,_Chapter_3

Not to mention, Maric goes after Fiona + Katriel. Admittedly, he wasn't married to Rowan at the time. But he was engaged to her while he was banging Katriel every time her back was turned. It's hard for me to see Maric as being entirely immune to the siren song of pretty elf chicks.

[scarylady]

As I remember (and it's a while since I read it) Katriel basically jumped him.

[amhran_comhrac]

While he was in an infirmary, no less!

[scarylady]

See? I rest my case. Theirin boys; you have to break their legs so they can't run away.

[amhran_comhrac]

The thing with his Katriel fling was that he didn't know Rowan actually had romantic feelings for him. Their marriage had been arranged when they were children, by his mother and her father to cement their alliance. The two had always been buddies and I got the impression he thought that hadn't changed.

[niniane]

I'll agree that it is possible that Maric was all "eh, it doesn't matter, since you don't like me". But surely at some point he...noticed? I mean, maybe not, but it still seems kind of cold to sleep with one person when engaged to another and not even talk about it first...

I'm not saying that Maric is this horrible person, but it's hard for me to see him either as this paragon of virtue where he's so great and noble and faithful that he would *never* so much as consider cheating on his wife (who he didn't love, at least in TST).

Even Alistair is willing to have a menage a trois with Isabella or marry Anora (if you make him). And he's sure as hell willing to cheat on his wife (with you) if you take the mistress ending. For all that, he's more than willing to drop you like a hot poker if you save Loghain, but will still marry Anora (if hardened), despite that he describes her as being "just like her father". I mean, seriously...I'm not sure that he's this perfect paragon of virtue, either. (Not to mention that he'll let you do horrible things left and right in game rather than storm off and go "screw you". Yeah, I know, game mechanics. But it still unnerves me that with a persuasion check he registers -5 at killing the city elves, -0 at slaughtering the Dalish, and not that much from what I can remember at desecrating the ashes.)

I'm willing to say, "yeah, it's possible that Maric was perfectly faithful to Rowan". But it doesn't seem that implausible to say, either, "Yeah, Alistair's the son of a serving wench that Maric knocked up while still married to Rowan". I mean, ultimately? If Alistair is *not* Goldanna's half brother, there's been a major conspiracy going on...

[darkrose]

But surely at some point he...noticed?

Maric is pretty damn stupid throughout TST. It never occurred to him that Katriel wasn't what she seemed? Seriously?

I'm not saying that Maric is this horrible person, but it's hard for me to see him either as this paragon of virtue where he's so great and noble and faithful that he would *never* so much as consider cheating on his wife (who he didn't love, at least in TST).

I don't think it has anything to do with being a paragon of virtue. I think that Maric is an inherently passive, reactive character, who doesn't initiate sex. I also think he's does guilt real well, and he does know he's not exactly being fair to Rowan as it is.

Also, sleeping around on the very popular queen? Not a good move, politically.

Even Alistair is willing to have a menage a trois with Isabella or marry Anora (if you make him).

Not sure what this has to do with Maric.

I mean, ultimately? If Alistair is *not* Goldanna's half brother, there's been a major conspiracy going on...

Alternately, if Alistair isn't Fiona's kid, then The Calling makes even less sense than it already does. Who's the kid? Why is there a huge deal made of Duncan saying he'll keep an eye on the kid?

And of course, you get back to the simplest answer, which is that Gaider Jossed himself and used The Calling to retcon Alistair's backstory.

[darkrose]

Katriel totally jumps Maric. So does Fiona--literally.

[niniane]

Oh, I agree. But I don't find it implausible that he'd give into temptation when a serving girl jumped him too.

I mean, you figure that if he looks like Cailan and Alistair, he's hot. He's also king. He's probably barely able to get into bed at night without finding another servant in it, who just "happened" to take another nude nap in his bed...

[darkrose]

I have no problem assuming that Cailan was catting around. I just don't see it with Maric, and especially not if it means cheating on Rowan. Aside from everything else, Loghain would kick his ass.

[sarahsponda]

I wonder if that's one of the reasons Loghain dislikes Alistair so much, though.

[darkrose]

It certainly seems like that was the direction they were going before Alistair got retconned. For my personal canon, though, I've decided that Loghain isn't stupid, and that he can do math. Alistair is the right age to have been conceived during Maric's trip to the Deep Roads with the Wardens. There was a pretty elf on that trip. Maric has an elf fetish (and apparently, a Deep Roads sex kink). This leads to the logical conclusion that Maric had a bastard with an Orlesian elf Grey Warden mage. I'm not sure it would be possible for Fiona to have more strikes against her in Loghain's mind.

[niniane]

Yeah, but you have the issue then of Goldanna, how he ends up with Eamon, Loghain lying...

There's just so much confusion. Probably because "The Calling" tried to retcon Alistair's entire past. But his past does sort of make sense. A king + a servant = a royal bastard. And it's not hard to see both Loghain and Eamon being resentful of Alistair because of what his mere existence represents as far as Rowan goes.

I'm also always a bit curious about the Loghain + Rowan thing. I mean, as much as it's supposed to be "tragic romance", if Anora is supposed to be "nearly 30" by Ostgar, he didn't spend much time pining for her.

I mean, you figure that even if "nearly 30" = 28, then Loghain goes on his journey back to find Alis (let's say a few months there), finds some woman, and gets her knocked up within...like, a year? I'll admit that this 1) probably wasn't very well thought out, and 2) probably implies that Anora wasn't 100% intended. But it's still hard to see someone mourning his great tragic romance, and getting another woman pregnant in <2 years.

[elysium_fic]

Last I knew, mourning didn't render one impotent. Lots of people fuck to alleviate their depression.

[darkrose]

Yeah, but you have the issue then of Goldanna, how he ends up with Eamon, Loghain lying...

We know that the game has a lot of inconsistencies, many of them due to Alistair undergoing a complete personality and change during the development of the game. Given the number of actual, game-breaking bugs Bioware lets through QA, the fact that they didn't do a complete rewrite on the dialogue for an optional party member you only have for the tail end of the game shouldn't be surprising.

We also know that all of the characters in the game are unreliable narrators. Alistair know about Goldanna because someone told him. Do you really think that Eamon wouldn't lie to him?

But it's still hard to see someone mourning his great tragic romance, and getting another woman pregnant in <2 years.

*shrugs* He had a duty to produce an heir for the terynir--and if you can't be with the one(s) you love....What's much more telling to me is that he avoided court until Rowan died, at which point you'd need a crowbar to pry him out of Denerim.

Besides, I'm convinced that Loghain's attraction to Rowan was partially transference, since he couldn't have Maric.

[elysium_fic]

everyone talks about how much he adores Anora in game

Who talks about this, besides Anora pre-Landsmeet? I've been taking meticulous videos of every conversation cutscene, often reloading and pursuing different dialogue choices to be sure I didn't miss anything, and with everything except the Deep Roads and the Landsmeet done, there hasn't been so much as a peep about him adoring Anora.


he's crumpled up the letter telling him to divorce her

Actually he crumpled the letter from Celene not the one from Eamon.

[darkrose]

The only other person I can think of who mentions it is Eamon, when he talks in his incredibly condescending way about how Anora had Cailan wrapped around her finger from the time they were children.

[niniane]

Um, Eamon says something about how Cailan was a "good boy" had no chance after Anora "batted her eyes at him". Loghain remarks that Anora "led Cailan around like a puppy on a leash", and Wynne says, "Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you." (Although how Wynne would know is so far beyond me as to be totally baffling.)

I mean, it's possible that they're all wrong. Also possible that they were mistaking Cailan's affection for something else. *shrugs* I'll admit that I find Anora as a femme fatale almost laughable, don't think that Wynne is a great observer of the Anora-Cailan marriage, *and* think it's entirely possible that either Loghain wanted to believe they were happier than they were *or* was referring more to them playing a kids than any real affection. But...it is remarked on.

[elysium_fic]

Okay, thanks. It's been a while since I've been to the Landsmeet portion of the game and I haven't gotten there yet on my "vid-cap EVERYTHING" play-through (seriously, I have, like, 400 videos already) so it's possible I just haven't seen these references yet.

[niniane]

Yeah, the game is so complex that it's really hard to get to *all* of the dialogues, I think.

[niniane]

Oh, sorry. But still...it's possibly meant to be read as a sign (otherwise, why mention that it's crumbled!) that Cailan's not 100% happy with this plan of "get rid of Anora, marry Celene". Again, that would be my read on it. It's possible to interpret it differently.

[elysium_fic]

I figure the crumpled note can go one of two ways.

1) He's angry and frustrated that Celene isn't coming (likely this was how it was intended to be interpreted, given the axed Celene subplot, and the "crumpled" aspect is simple another one of those things that didn't get fixed in rewrites.

2) He's disgusted at Celene's hinting about a marriage alliance. Whether that's due to his devotion to Anora, or the fact that even Cailan isn't idiot enough to fail to see that attempting to marry the empress of Orlais would go over like a pregnant pole vaulter is completely open to interpretation.

[niniane]

Yeah, I'd totally agree that it's open to interpretation. (And kind of love the "OMG, no Celene! But I wanted hot Empress sex!" interpretation.) Then again, he's never met Celene, so I'm not sure why he'd be super disappointed at her loss...although maybe he's seen her picture. Or is really curious.