Elven questions, and a theory

[darkrose]

I got my new laptop! It's amazing--I can play DA in the way it was meant to be played, with decent graphics and without long pauses between keyboard entry and action.

I'm trying to finish my third Mira playthrough, and it's raised some questions about the elven history and lore as presented in the game.

Questions first:

1. How many towns in Ferelden have alienages? Canonically, Denerim and Highever are mentioned, but Amaranthine City doesn't seem like it's big enough to support an alienage, and we certainly don't see one in Awakening.

2. The thing about elves not being allowed to carry weapons--is this something Howe put in place, or is it actual law? Does it only apply to the alienage itself? It comes up in fic a lot, but no one apparently blinks when Mira and Zevran are running around town conspicuously armed and armored. (And yeah, hardly anyone recognizes you as a Grey Warden either, but I'd like to at least pretend like there's some consistency here.

3. Does the Chantry actually, you know, DO anything in terms of social issues? I guess they take in orphans, but based on the City Elf origin, they only show up in the alienage if you pay them to officiate a wedding; certainly the sister at your wedding is pretty ineffectual when Vaughan kidnaps half the wedding party.

4. Why, exactly, did some of the elves choose to move to the human cities and live as third-class citizens after the destruction of the Dales? I could understand if they were already there, but it seems odd that at least half of them would follow their oppressors rather than the rest of their people.

I do have a theory on this, based on something Lenaya says. If you talk to her, she mentions that there was resistance to her training as Zathrian's First because she wasn't born Dalish. She explains that the Dalish elves are descended from the nobility of the Dales.

To me, this suggests that the split between Dalish and city elves is class-based, and that while the nobility swore never to bow to defeat, the commoners either couldn't or wouldn't go with them if it meant wandering homeless forever. I can easily see Joe or Jane Ordinary Elf saying, "Look, I'm not a very good hunter, and I've got two small children--I'm supposed to become a permanent refugee just for the sake of pride? Fuck that shit." I think it gives an interesting twist to the Dalish contempt for "flat-ears"; there's some guilt underlying that attitude.


ETA: mousestalker answered question 4 here. Thank you!

Comments

[zillah975]

1. No idea. I wonder if you could do this pretty much as you like, if you're thinking of it as a plot point for a story.

2. I'm pretty sure it's at least a Denerim alienage thing not implemented by Howe, because iirc, when my newest elf was about to leave with Duncan, he stopped by the store to see if he could get some supplies, and one of the dialog options was to ask if he had any weapons, to which the answer was something like, "You know we're not allowed to carry weapons."

3. I think they don't. I don't recall hearing any of them say much about it. Elder Miriam in Lothering is doing more for the people there than the Revered Mother is, at least as far as I can tell, and I don't recall anyone else in the Chantry doing much to help anyone except pray to the Maker. Which seems of questionable use.

4. Your theory makes sense to me.

[darkrose]

2. I'm pretty sure it's at least a Denerim alienage thing not implemented by Howe, because iirc, when my newest elf was about to leave with Duncan, he stopped by the store to see if he could get some supplies, and one of the dialog options was to ask if he had any weapons, to which the answer was something like, "You know we're not allowed to carry weapons."

Ah, okay--I've never done that.

Which makes it kind of O.o that no one seems to notice Mira running around Denerim with two big shiny glowing longswords strapped to her back, plus the bow (and I really don't want to think about where she pulls that bow from when she swaps weapons).


I don't recall anyone else in the Chantry doing much to help anyone except pray to the Maker. Which seems of questionable use.

I appreciate that worldbuilding is complex, but the whole Chantry religion bugs me because there's absolutely no reason for anyone to worship the Maker, especially the elves. He doesn't do anything for you; you don't even have the "well, it'll all be better in heaven" thing that was used in the Americas to keep the slaves from rebelling. I can't imagine why any elf would give more than the bare minimum of lip service to the Maker; I have a hard time figuring out why anyone would worship him, since he's kind of a passive-aggressive jerk. I actually think that Leliana is the only one who gives a good reason for following the Maker, and she's almost considered a heretic.

[scarylady]

I have a hard time figuring out why anyone would worship him, since he's kind of a passive-aggressive jerk

Aren't you thinking in a very modern way there? I mean, tbh, all monotheistic gods were passive-aggressive jerks up until quite recently, when ancient dogma began to be reinterpreted.

None of the popular gods of our world have lifted a finger as far as I can see, but the political structures of their religions (particularly middle ages and prior) have never stinted on telling us what we should or shouldn't do, or on punishing those who don't.

I'm trying really hard not to offend anyone here, so please be aware that I'm referring to the historical dogma, bigotry and violence of organised religion. Faith, in any form that makes you try to be a better person, is a Good Thing.

[prisoner_24601]

Not to mention the how a lot of polytheistic gods (like the greek pantheon for instance) were made up of total crazy psychos, lol. And while, yeah, the gods could intervene on your behalf and you could make offerings to them, really what you wanted if you were smart was for the gods not to notice you and leave you the hell alone, because more often than not, their interference in your life made things worse. And people still worshiped them.

Also not all religions have the concept of heaven and hell or a reward in the afterlife either. Even the greeks who sort of had a concept of an afterlife (which came late to their oral tradition), it wasn't something that was generally fun - in the best case scenario, you were a shadow of yourself walking endlessly in the Elysium fields. So I could see people worshiping this sort of absentee, disinterested god. It doesn't seem any odder than a lot of other religious traditions out there.

[darkrose]

Aren't you thinking in a very modern way there? I mean, tbh, all monotheistic gods were passive-aggressive jerks up until quite recently, when ancient dogma began to be reinterpreted.

True, but while I don't know enough about Islam to say, in Judaism and Christianity, you have a carrot along with the stick: the Promised Land, or "it'll be better in Heaven, so shut up and deal in this world". As far as I can tell, there's none of that with the Maker. If humanity spreads the Chant to the 4 corners of the world--pretty much impossible, since the dwarves aren't going to go for that--then maybe he'll deign to come back. There's no afterlife to look forward to, and in this life, there's a good chance that you'll end up dealing with the result of a particularly nasty bout of collective punishment in the form of the darkspawn.

[sakuratea]

because once everybody speaks the chant of light he'll come back

[zillah975]

Also, YAY NEW LAPTOP!! :D :D :D

[darkrose]

Yes! It is shiny and the keys glow!

[bellaknoti]

1. every major city has an alienage; if it's big enough to have elves in it, it's got one. it might just be the ghetto, maybe not an actual alienage, but it's there somehow. they band together.

2. elves are not allowed to carry weapons because they rebelled too many times. no one says anything to zev or the warden (if applicable), because they (usually) run around with people like sten and alistair, never mind how scary morrigan can be, and have you met dog? >.> i wouldn't fuck with me, either.

3. the chantry plays a similar role to the catholic church; works of charity and custodians of faith, as well as meddling in the lives of mages and trying to keep historical records.

4. speaking as a mahariel: the dalish do not feel guilt for our city cousins. they chose to stay, when the rest of us were bright enough to run. those poor souls are lost. they're either to be pitied or disregarded. if they try to escape, well, they can be enfolded back into their people. but as long as they choose to live among the shemlen, to have their lives be short, to work as drudges in the filth of the shemlen cities without seeing any reward for their work, they're contemptible. they don't even try to get their lore back. they don't even speak their language properly; a 'hahren' instead of a keeper? please. >.>

on the other hand, speaking as a tabris: why would the city elves want to abandon things like beds and baths for cold water and sleeping on sticks? why bother hunting for things when you can visit the butcher? assuming you can afford it, yeah, but if you get work in a noble house, you can get pretty good deals on life. have enough money to keep your children and maybe some of your family in good stead, as well. maybe even gain a little respect. who needs to speak a dead language?

it has been posited that the split is class-based, yes. but i'm willing to bet it's muddier than that.

[darkrose]

every major city has an alienage; if it's big enough to have elves in it, it's got one. it might just be the ghetto, maybe not an actual alienage, but it's there somehow. they band together.

Where is it in Amaranthine? Are there enough elves in Gwaren to actually have an alienage? And, who, exactly, is the "Bann of the Alienage" supposed to represent?

elves are not allowed to carry weapons because they rebelled too many times. no one says anything to zev or the warden (if applicable), because they (usually) run around with people like sten and alistair, never mind how scary morrigan can be, and have you met dog? >.> i wouldn't fuck with me, either.

No one even looks remotely surprised at any point, though. There are absolutely no consequences, even if you go into the city alone. The guard at the alienage tells you to go away, and that's it.

Obviously, the meta reason is the same reason that everyone recognizes you as the Grey Warden with a price on your head, but no one even tries to turn you in for the reward except those poor slobs in Lothering.

the chantry plays a similar role to the catholic church; works of charity and custodians of faith, as well as meddling in the lives of mages and trying to keep historical records.

Well, yes, that's the theory, but as with the Catholic Church, the practice seems to be different. Mostly we see the the clerics standing around outside the Chantry, or occasionally sitting in it; I got the impression that their main duty was to pray and recite the Chant, and that everything else was secondary.

In particular, it would seem to me that if there was sickness in the alienage, the Chantry would be out there, certainly before the Tevinter mages.

I could buy that the Chantry is the closest thing to an educational system in Ferelden; that would at least explain the insanely high literacy rate.

it has been posited that the split is class-based, yes. but i'm willing to bet it's muddier than that.

At the point when the split occurred, the choice was, "Do you want to be a slave, or not?" I'm sure there was at least an oral tradition that talked about how awful things were under the Imperium, so what would make any elf in their right minds go back to that? The only reason I can think of is that they felt they had no choice. That may or may not have been the case, but it's another one of those things that doesn't make much sense to me.

[bellaknoti]

as with denerim, we don't see the entire city of amaranthine, just a portion of it. the alienage is udoubtedly located in a part of the city we can't actually access.

i think people not reacting to elvish wardens is more because of how that would change the game requiring an entirely different script in every encounter; it was probably left out for simplicity's sake, rather than as a commentary about the warden him/herself.

i think the praying and chanting is their day-to-day functions, but remember, we do see them doing other things. they are protecting the refugees in lothering and redcliffe, there is the artifact lady outside the denerim chantry, and there is the guy in orzammar who is trying to spread the faith. they'll bless you, as well, and run the chanter's board, which is an act of charity. they keep track of the mages in the tower - very much fingers in the cake there - and the artifacts chick shows how they are still interested in history and antiquities.

i believe that the chantry wasn't involved in the alienage 'sickness' because there was no actual sickness for them to be involved in. my best guess is that since loghain is the one who licensed the tevinters to begin taking slaves, by the time there was any word of a 'sickness', the place was already closed off and 'being dealt with'. so, no chantry presence. a chantry presence would have been counter-productive to loghain's plans, and so was circumvented, just like a lot of other inconvenient law-abiding things he should have been caught out on.

stockholm syndrome? 'at least here we're being taken care of'? 'i can't leave my family'? 'but this is all i've ever known'? 'but you guys are just making it up, how will we even survive'? lots of reasons, i'm sure. technically, the elves in the cities aren't slaves. they're not equal citizens, but they're not slaves. you still have to pay them. >.> mostly. if you can't get away with treating them badly.

[scarylady]

Denerim not reacting to elven Wardens with weapons is just lazy coding, imo. All the guards in Orzammar react to a duster Warden - either with 'I know you're a Warden, but I'm still watching you' or ' What the hell are you doing with that weapon?'

[zillah975]

but no one even tries to turn you in for the reward except those poor slobs in Lothering.

That's one of the few places where my obsessive search for XP is cast aside. I've gone around them every time since the first -- I just can't bring myself to kill a bunch of desperate peasants trying to scrabble together enough money to get out of Lothering before the darkspawn devour it.

[prisoner_24601]

1. Huh. I didn't know that Highever had an alienage. I always thought that it was Denerim only, mostly because I'm guessing that it would take a city of a truly large size to really bother segregating the elves with actual walls, instead of having them live in a certain section of town. Mostly what you would have are ghettos where the elves sort of stick together.

2. I'm really not sure who put the law in place. Could be either and old law or Howe, I think. My guess about the reason why no one calls your warden on being armed and armored, is because things are so crazy in the city, that no one has the time, inclination, or resources to really enforce that rule. If you talk to Sgt. Kylon, he makes it pretty clear that things are bad in the city and crime is out of control - he and his guys aren't going to hassle anyone (like a wanted Grey Warden), unless they're causing trouble. So pretty much everyone's just looking the other way, probably until someone breaks a law and then if they're carrying weapons, they get in trouble for that too. That's my theory, anyway.

3. My guess is the chantry does pretty much the functions of a lot of churches today. They preach, spread the word, officiate weddings, keep the history, run schools, fundraise and distribute things like food, clothing and medicine. We see them acting as disaster relief in lothering.

Other than what they do to the mages, I'm not entirely sure why the Chantry gets such a bad rap in fandom (and I think an argument can be made that what they do to the mages is a necessary evil). They're a large organization, that's probably got it's share of corruption, but when push comes to shove, they're a hell of a lot more responsive and interested in helping the average person (at least human person) than pretty much everyone we see in the nobility. From what we see in the game, it's the nobility and its class/social structure based on hereditary rule that is far more disinterested, destructive and oppressive than the chantry.

4. I like your theory. It makes sense to me that elves in the past had a class structure of its own and that the division between the nobles and the peasants ended up creating the Dalish and the city elves.

[scarylady]

I've thought about the Chantry a lot, and decided that the only thing preventing them from being just as greedy and corrupt as the Christian church became in the middle ages (in England at any rate, I can't speak for anywhere else) is that the transfer of land and title is different in Ferelden.

They can't so easily use fear of the Maker's displeasure as a whip to be left pots of money and large tracts of land in people's wills. Particularly because they don't have a concept of heaven and hell to terrify the populace with.

[scarylady]

Hmm, this was meant to be a response to Prisoner's post. Oh well.

[prisoner_24601]

You know, that's entirely possible. I mean it is a large organization. Even with the best intentioned people it's going to have a lot of corruption. But without access to land, which is were the real money and power lies in a society like Ferelden's, it would be difficult to have that control. And that's a really good point about not being able to use the fear of God to whip people into falling in line.

In the game itself just really seems like a super tame version of medieval Christian churches. Especially since we don't see them doing things like leading crusades or forcing people to tithe. Most of what we see them do in the game is good - disaster relief, marrying people, taking in orphans, keeping records, running the charity of the chanter's board, etc... They seem remarkably more tolerant than you'd really think they'd be.

[jannifer]

I might also point out that there is no vacuum in political power, which is what really allowed the Catholic Church to become so powerful. When the Roman Empire fell, there was no longer any government in many areas, unless it was a large enough area for a local lord to rise to power. Mostly, the Empire dissolved back into warring tribes. The only central power which remained was the Catholic Church, and so it took on many of the responsibilities formerly carried by a central government. It was also a perfect time for an ambitious clergyman to consolidate a little power on his own.

In Ferelden, there is a strong governmental system in place and no need for the Chantry to step into politics or government.

[sakuratea]

And Catholic dogma was not as consistent during the Middle Ages. Priests married and positions of power would pass through families. Even when they didn't, most important positions in the church were held by members of the local power elite. Ferelden seems to have less extra children to join the Chantry to expand their family's power.

[scarylady]

When was the Chantry formed? Prior to Calenhad, Ferelden was just a bunch of warring tribes, too.

Why go to an alienage

[mousestalker]

Lanaya mentions that the Dalish are the descendants of the elven nobles (similar to the Irish wild geese, I suppose). They fled when the Dales were overrun by an Exalted March. The lower classes were carted off as captives by the Orlesian invaders. Leliana discusses the Orlesian elves being serfs. Your elven Warden can point out that the difference between being a serf and a slave is rather small. The Tevinters still have elven slaves.

An elf living alone, outside of an Alienage would be quite vulnerable. Inside the Alienage, you would be relatively free from casual anti-elven violence. It is not an ideal existence, but despised ethnic minorities tend to live close to each other for a degree of mutual support (Jews in medieval Europe, Jews in the middle east, Armenians in the middle east, Chinese throughout Asia, Indians in Africa).

Re: Why go to an alienage

[darkrose]

Lanaya mentions that the Dalish are the descendants of the elven nobles (similar to the Irish wild geese, I suppose). They fled when the Dales were overrun by an Exalted March. The lower classes were carted off as captives by the Orlesian invaders

Thank you! That was the piece that I was missing.

[zute]

This wasn't mentioned in your initial post but apparently Elves that try to own businesses or farms end up getting sabotaged by humans, losing their investments and having to come back to the Alienage with nothing.

But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break; they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field.
Sarethia, Alienage Elder
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[niniane]

That makes sense to me. The Alienages for the elves remind me a lot of the ghettos for the Jews. It wouldn't surprise me if the walls are at least there in part for their own protection. (Although, as with the Jews, you do have to wonder whether this is true, or just is a convenient way to justify basically jailing a group of people.)

[niniane]

1. Probably any towns with a large enough population. Although Highever and Denerim may be the only two large enough. (Maybe Gwaren? Does anyone mention alienages existing there? I actually thought I remembered the opposite, as there are so many Dalish who wander through the place that everyone went "screw it", although I could be wrong.)

2. The weapon thing always seems a bit odd to me on a long term basis as Nelaros is supposed to be a smith. I mean, maybe he didn't make weapons (just nails and horse shoes?), but it seems a bit strange to have elves making weapons, but not carrying them. Then again, people are really weird...

3. There are collection plates for orphans at the Chantry in Awakenings, so they probably do a bit of things. Adopt orphans. Marry people. Sort of look out for the poor. Mileage probably varies, depending on the sisters, the funding, etc.

4. I like your theory on the elves. ;) I know in game there was a bit about elves becoming Andrastians because she freed them from slavery, but that's about the farthest I can come as to why elves would stay. Other than that forests are cold and uncomfortable, and if you were a servant somewhere and were told "hey, why don't you go into the woods and support yourself hunting and gathering?" that you'd probably go "hell, no! I'd starve!" Which would be the most realistic expectation...