peopleofthedas | Elven questions, and a theory

I got my new laptop! It's amazing--I can play DA in the way it was meant to be played, with decent graphics and without long pauses between keyboard entry and action.

I'm trying to finish my third Mira playthrough, and it's raised some questions about the elven history and lore as presented in the game.

Questions first:

1. How many towns in Ferelden have alienages? Canonically, Denerim and Highever are mentioned, but Amaranthine City doesn't seem like it's big enough to support an alienage, and we certainly don't see one in Awakening.

2. The thing about elves not being allowed to carry weapons--is this something Howe put in place, or is it actual law? Does it only apply to the alienage itself? It comes up in fic a lot, but no one apparently blinks when Mira and Zevran are running around town conspicuously armed and armored. (And yeah, hardly anyone recognizes you as a Grey Warden either, but I'd like to at least pretend like there's some consistency here.

3. Does the Chantry actually, you know, DO anything in terms of social issues? I guess they take in orphans, but based on the City Elf origin, they only show up in the alienage if you pay them to officiate a wedding; certainly the sister at your wedding is pretty ineffectual when Vaughan kidnaps half the wedding party.

4. Why, exactly, did some of the elves choose to move to the human cities and live as third-class citizens after the destruction of the Dales? I could understand if they were already there, but it seems odd that at least half of them would follow their oppressors rather than the rest of their people.

I do have a theory on this, based on something Lenaya says. If you talk to her, she mentions that there was resistance to her training as Zathrian's First because she wasn't born Dalish. She explains that the Dalish elves are descended from the nobility of the Dales.

To me, this suggests that the split between Dalish and city elves is class-based, and that while the nobility swore never to bow to defeat, the commoners either couldn't or wouldn't go with them if it meant wandering homeless forever. I can easily see Joe or Jane Ordinary Elf saying, "Look, I'm not a very good hunter, and I've got two small children--I'm supposed to become a permanent refugee just for the sake of pride? Fuck that shit." I think it gives an interesting twist to the Dalish contempt for "flat-ears"; there's some guilt underlying that attitude.

ETA:

mousestalker answered question 4 here. Thank you!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Yep, my Neria was a total goodey-goodey bookworm, and she shared the views of Irving and Wynne as well. Although there were times where she found them to be inconvenient, she knew that in the end, the Chantry and Templars were necessary. This was especially apparent to her after she fought Uldric D:

It's funny, because to me the Templars seem kind of like camp counselors or chaperons. Sure they watch out for you, but have a sudden urge to tinkle at 2am and they go all rageface at you "WTF ARE YOU DOING PUT THOSE SPARKLEFINGERS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM!!"

I need caffeine, my brain is going in all sorts of weird directions this morning.

OMG. I die, roflmao (I am laughing so hard my tummy hurts). I can totally see the Templars as camp councilors. Honestly, for all of the bitching about how oppressive being in the tower was (and you know, it is - they can be killed at a whim and also they are stuck in that damned tower) it really played like some sort of high school drama where everyone was stuck in permanent detention.

But yeah, my mage was totally the same way. He's very much a creature of duty (and also a nerd), and appreciates the fact that while it sucks to have them around, the Templars are really sort of necessary. Which is why he'd never ask for them to be freed as a boon from the Queen (or King). And I suspect that he and Anders would totally clash over this hardcore in Awakenings.

Well, and in a very real way, it probably sucks more to be a templar than a mage, as at least the mages don't have to be celibate.

I mean, sure Cullen seems to like the whole virtue and righteousness thing (then again, Wynne seems to like being a mage), but an awful lot of them were probably orphans (like Alistair) or second sons (like Alfstanna's brother) who were forced to become templars whether they wanted to or not. And certainly Carroll whines enough about not being able to tell dirty stories/have sex/do anything that he wants to do on the boat ride over...

And probably bad as both groups have it, it's still better than being an Alienage elf or human peasant who is stuck wondering if they'll starve to death each winter. AT least mages and templars get a roof over their head and several meals a day. Life in Ferelden sucks.

Yeah, that's the thing. Depending on where you were coming from, being a mage might not be that bad in comparison.

Like for someone like Conner it would be devastating. He goes from being in the top 1% of the elite privileged, heir to an Arldom and having more freedom and wealth than almost everyone in the entire country to being locked in the tower for the rest of his life and stripped of his title. But for a kid on a backwater farm where they're scratching out an existence or a kid out of the alienage? They might welcome the chance to not starve, get an education, etc... as a tradeoff for all of the suck. For them, it wouldn't be so horrible necessarily. It would still suck, as you don't get to have kids or the freedom to travel as you want, but in comparison to being your average peasant, it's not so bad.

And I agree. I really feel just as bad for the Templars as I do for the mages, as their lives seem to be even more restrictive and just as forced into the situation by circumstances of birth many times as the mages.

Yeah, I think much of the sympathy for mages and hatred of Templars (or how terrible it is to be either of them, for all that) in fandom comes from how you play a mage. But you don't play a peasant or templar, so you're inclined to feel sorry for the mages.

Then again, it's odd to me how rarely in fandom it's brought up that Alistair is a poor, miserable templar who barely makes it out of the Chantry. (And I'm curious, too, as to why so many mages in the stories hook up with him without being all like "eewww, get away from me mage killer!" Although I think that this is Lehni's impression of him. ;)

I've written a couple of stories where Alistair didn't make it out of the Chantry. They're both pretty dark. It's hard to see a good outcome from that AU.

But for a kid on a backwater farm where they're scratching out an existence or a kid out of the alienage? They might welcome the chance to not starve, get an education, etc... as a tradeoff for all of the suck. For them, it wouldn't be so horrible necessarily. It would still suck, as you don't get to have kids or the freedom to travel as you want, but in comparison to being your average peasant, it's not so bad.

Eh, except for the part where you're constantly given the message that there's something wrong with you for existing, that you're essentially cursed by your deity and that people like you are the source of all the evil in the world. And the part where you're constantly at risk of demonic possession, and regarded as a loose nuke--or you can opt to have your emotions stripped from you.

Not that being sworn to chastity, hooked on a highly addictive drug and being sent to guard the loose nukes is much better.

Right. I'm not saying it's a cake walk (although really, I do maintain that the origin could have made this much more clear. The way it plays really doesn't do the idea justice). What I am saying is that if you're an orphan in the slums or a kid starving out on a farm somewhere, you might decide that it's worth being an outcast and feared and possibly killed, for the chance to get three square meals a day, a roof over your head, an education and the chance to learn how to set your enemies on fire.

Some people are going to chafe under the restrictions and hate them. Some might think it's worth the tradeoff for what they gain. It's really going to depend on the person's personality, background, etc... how they feel about that, I think.

you might decide that it's worth being an outcast and feared and possibly killed, for the chance to get three square meals a day, a roof over your head, an education and the chance to learn how to set your enemies on fire.

It's rather moot, because you're not given that choice. If you're a mage, you go to the Tower, or you're hunted as an apostate--unless you get killed by the magic-hating villagers.

Yeah there isn't the choice really about whether or not you go for most people - but there is a choice about whether or not you accept it, like it, think it's not that bad or worth the tradeoff in the long run or can't stand it. People are different and will have a spectrum of different reactions from "Okay I was taken to the tower but it's totally better than where I was" to "omg this totally blows."

People are individuals and will react as such. Some might accept or even welcome going there. Some might really hate and resent it. That's all I'm saying.

And we do see evidence of this in the game. Obviously Anders wants nothing more than to *not* be stuck in the tower, while Wynne seems to think that she's supposed to be there. (And Keili is just sort of crazy.)

we don't really know how it compares to being an average peasant. That is, at least to me, the most gaping hole in world building. We don't really know much at all about how the average person live, how many of them there are vs. the nobility, how many free-holders vs. bans vs. elves. We can't really have meaningful sociological analysis of most parts of this world. Are peasants in Ferelden like peasants in England? In France? The whole idea that the country is built around freeholds rather than manors means that their economies are not meaningfully analogous to pre-capitalist Europe.

I agree wholly with this entire statement. Especially the first and last parts! :)

One of the big things about Anders is that he came to the Tower when he was around 14. Most mages are identified young, but he has a very real sense of what he's missing

Elven questions, and a theory

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject