Elven questions, and a theory

[darkrose]

I got my new laptop! It's amazing--I can play DA in the way it was meant to be played, with decent graphics and without long pauses between keyboard entry and action.

I'm trying to finish my third Mira playthrough, and it's raised some questions about the elven history and lore as presented in the game.

Questions first:

1. How many towns in Ferelden have alienages? Canonically, Denerim and Highever are mentioned, but Amaranthine City doesn't seem like it's big enough to support an alienage, and we certainly don't see one in Awakening.

2. The thing about elves not being allowed to carry weapons--is this something Howe put in place, or is it actual law? Does it only apply to the alienage itself? It comes up in fic a lot, but no one apparently blinks when Mira and Zevran are running around town conspicuously armed and armored. (And yeah, hardly anyone recognizes you as a Grey Warden either, but I'd like to at least pretend like there's some consistency here.

3. Does the Chantry actually, you know, DO anything in terms of social issues? I guess they take in orphans, but based on the City Elf origin, they only show up in the alienage if you pay them to officiate a wedding; certainly the sister at your wedding is pretty ineffectual when Vaughan kidnaps half the wedding party.

4. Why, exactly, did some of the elves choose to move to the human cities and live as third-class citizens after the destruction of the Dales? I could understand if they were already there, but it seems odd that at least half of them would follow their oppressors rather than the rest of their people.

I do have a theory on this, based on something Lenaya says. If you talk to her, she mentions that there was resistance to her training as Zathrian's First because she wasn't born Dalish. She explains that the Dalish elves are descended from the nobility of the Dales.

To me, this suggests that the split between Dalish and city elves is class-based, and that while the nobility swore never to bow to defeat, the commoners either couldn't or wouldn't go with them if it meant wandering homeless forever. I can easily see Joe or Jane Ordinary Elf saying, "Look, I'm not a very good hunter, and I've got two small children--I'm supposed to become a permanent refugee just for the sake of pride? Fuck that shit." I think it gives an interesting twist to the Dalish contempt for "flat-ears"; there's some guilt underlying that attitude.


ETA: mousestalker answered question 4 here. Thank you!

Comments

[jannifer]

It might be worth noting that the only place Chantry law supersedes secular law is in the matter of mages and, by extension, the hunting of apostates. Thus, Loghain's men had no legal right to interfere with the capture of a blood mage.

One might, of course, argue that any organized religion has political power through its influence over its believers. Modern examples might be found in the religious right in the US or certain Moslem sects in the Middle East. I offer these examples purely as socio-political commentary and NOT as comments on the rightness or wrongness of a particular belief system.

[scarylady]

I've never mastered the toolset, so I can't look it up, but I'm trying to remember exactly what Alistair says when they find Irminric. I didn't think he mentioned interfering in the capture of a blood mage though, I thought it was a bit more general than that.

[niniane]

I think that the Irminric plot line comes out in the Landsmeet (although I forget). But I was fairly sure that the reason Howe had him was that he was trying to hunt down Jowan. Thus, Loghain wanted him gone to protect his sort of fail!assassin.

As it is, though, the Chantry is pissed off about Irminric being captured as Howe/Loghain/whoever isn't supposed to interfere in the sacred duty of a templar hunting down a maleficar.

[scarylady]

I know all that, but it isn't what I'm referring to. When you are stood outside Irminric's cell, Alistair says something like "The Grand Cleric would be spitting hot coals if she knew. The nobility have no jurisdiction (or right of justice?) over the Templars."

I just can't remember *exactly* the wording, and how general or specific it actually is.

[niniane]

OK, that makes sense. I think I remember something like that.

But, yeah, there definitely seems to be a division in game between what the state is and is not allowed to do regarding the Chantry. I sort of wonder how much of this is some sort of division of power, and how much is the ability of the Chantry to call for reinforcements from Orlais if things get tough...

[scarylady]

Well, that is of course the other thing. No-one wants to rock the boat sufficiently to cause an exalted March.

I do wonder also how much the Divine and the Empress are in bed together (so to speak). And who pulls whose strings...

[elysium_fic]

Well, until Maric turned the tide of the rebellion, the Grand Cleric was telling Fereldans that the Maker ordained Meghren to be Ferelden's rightful ruler.

So I imagine the ruler of the Orlesian Empire and the Divine are pretty tight.

[jannifer]

I can use the Toolset enough to check conversations, so here are the relevant bits from the conversation you have with Irminric in the arl's dungeon.

Irminric: ...You aren't one of the teryn's men? I...I failed in my duties. Maker, forgive me. I failed, and there's no telling what he's done.

(Alistair's comment comes here after he tells you that Irminric is probably in withdrawal. He says, "If the grand cleric knew he was here, she'd be spitting hot coals. Nobles don't have authority over templars." The conversation then continues as follows: )

PC: Who are you talking about?

Irminric: The maleficar. He had turned blood magic upon templars and Circle mages to escape from his tower. Near Redcliffe I cornered him.... But the teryn's men took him from me...and brought me here....

PC: This maleficar, was his name Jowan?

Irminric: Yes. He...destroyed his phylactery...we were spread out trying to find him. I was alone.

This explains Jowan's presence at Redcliffe Castle and fits in with what Jowan says Loghain had promised him. For the purposes of this discussion, it's worth noting that 1) the templars were in pursuit of a blood mage (Jowan) and 2) Alistair is commenting on the fact that the mage was taken from the templars and Irminric was imprisoned.

[scarylady]

Yes, that's it. Thank you.

I have always taken the statement "Nobles don't have authority over templars" to be a general one. Therefore in my stories, if a templar commits a crime, he is turned over to the Chantry for their justice and punishment, as the nobles do not have the Right of High Justice over templars.

After all, if that wasn't the case, it isn't as though Alistair would have had to go into detail about blood mages, he could have simply said "Nobles don't have authority over templars in the pursuance of their duties."

[jannifer]

I think that's a perfectly reasonable way of looking at things. I, too, see the templars as the Chantry's problem. I'd think that the local secular authorities would arrest a rogue templar and perhaps even investigate the crime s/he is alleged to have committed. Then, they'd turn the whole mess over to the Chantry -- templar, evidence and all.

My interpretation of Alistair's comment is based on where it comes. It isn't something he says when you first find Irminric; it comes in response to Irminric's comment that they aren't the teryn's men.

Personally, I like seeing other people's interpretations. It's one of the things that makes the game so rich -- it's not simple, there are shades and nuances that may be interpreted in several different ways.