So, Found Out About DA2 Stuff

[1smut_princess]

Apparently there is a reason DA2 went the way it did. Like it or hate it, there are aspects that are extremely different from other BioWare games in DAII.

The senior writer wanted it to be more like Twilight (the underline is merely because it is a book title, not stressing any distaste - hubby had to ask as he's reading over my shoulder).

Complaints of a Senior Game Writer

Now - what confuses the (insert a stream of inappropriate words please) "stuffing" out of me is why on earth would someone who does not like playing video games would become a senior writer in the gaming industry? Granted it could give an edge on how to appeal to a broader audience...as in those who don't like video games. But then would it still be a video game if one took all that out? Also, the trash battles, with 'hey ser bandit please fall over dead for the thousandth time, m'kay?' and his buddies, are suddenly explained.

Thoughts, observations?

Should gameplay suffer for plot? Or plot suffer for gameplay? What elements could balance these things, do you think?

Comments

[sagacious_rage]

But she didn't say she didn't like playing video games. She said she didn't like playing the combat. Which is something common among a lot of people I know. There's a reason people use the "Kill All Hostiles" hacks. So they don't have to deal with the waves of faceless enemies and can get back to the story faster.

[1smut_princess]

There's further links beyond the one displayed, I'll have to hunt them back up from Reddit - I understand that combat in general isn't always great, but a good writer should be able to make interesting fights, make them part of the script, rather than encouraging trash attack squads.

[sagacious_rage]

Not really though? That's more of the level designers' job.

[schreibzeug]

I remember having read about that senior writer's proclaimed distate for actually playing games before, but I did not know that Twilight's story was considered something to aspire to.
(Didn't Gaider once say that after Fenris' and Anders' characters where developed, there was sort of an awkward moment when two writers realised they'd both just written something very... Twilight?)

Stephenie Meyer claims to have made Bella Swan's character intentionally bland, so that readers could better envision themselves in her place. Maybe that's why Hawke never worked for me; I never had any idea who she was. That kind of writing just doesn't appeal to me.

But I think it's highly interesting that a woman in the gaming industry thinks that in order to make video games more interesting for women there would have to be an option to skip the actual game. I really don't get what's so absurd about the idea that women might play games because they like the gaming aspect.
I mean, I guess if I belonged to the group of people who really liked DA2's story, I wouldn't be so baffled by the idea that someone who dislikes games works in games just for the stories, but, well.
In my opinion, every time developers of whatever try to "appeal to a broader audience" they mainly succeed in annoying a huge part of the original audience. Which existed. Which is why they even get to make sequels.
As I mentioned, had I liked DA2's story better, I might have been more able to overlook the repetitive, nonsensical and unprovoked battles; and had the battles been more fun, certain aspects of the story wouldn't have annoyed me so much.
So I guess if you've got a really, really awesome story you might take the chance of producing a game that's not much about actually playing it, and if you've got awesomely entertaining gameplay it doesn't matter as much if your main character never quite says what the player wants them to in a surrounding that never pays attention anyway.
But, no, I started to play DA2 because it was a game, and not simply because I was interested in the story. I don't think I would have been interested in the film, either. And I really think someone who wants to make films should do so, and leave the games for the people who like games.

[1smut_princess]

Honestly if someone has a great "game" idea - story/characterwise - why make a game and not write a book instead? It would cost less and have higher profit margins even accounting for how little people these days read. (There's a reason my hubby thought the underline was meant to be distaste - any author who feels the need to make my escapism bland, isn't an author I need to read. To each their own, but I like a challenge.)

A friend of mine in the industry has said that while it is true that it is possible to make a game with good dialogue, interactions (including bodylingo etc), graphics, combat, the balance of everything yaddayadda - the cost would be prohibitive. It's an argument he and I get in regularly and one his wife doesn't understand. She looks at some of the "retro" games he and I play and says "It looks so bad though...how can you tell what anything is?" (16 and 8bit apparently is ugly? I dunno, I'll take gameplay and plot please... Pretty covers mean little to me.) But he's been recommending indie games to me for over a year now (I keep resisting - don't wanna mess with Steam...*whimper*) if looks aren't important but gameplay and plot are...
A game that actually managed to have looks, plot, and play simultaneously at peak performance, it would require the game to be sold at no less than 70usd and they'd have to sell a billion copies for it to be "worth it" - at least that's what his OverLords continue to tell him... And have been telling him for ages.

[amhran_comhrac]

I learned all I needed to know about how much the industry cares about story and dialogue when I found out Bioware is one of the ONLY studios in the world who has an actual dedicated writing team, instead of just freelancers or having level designers do the dialogue, too.

(and retro game 4 life. You know about gog.com, right? I love them with a deep and inappropirate love. They just reliesed Thief the Dark Project and Thief The Metal Age. Two of the best games of the late 90s, totally worth checking out if you've never played them.)

[amhran_comhrac]

You may be on to something with Hawke. She has *hints* of personality, but isn't all the way there. She's not a true blank slate like your Warden, but she's not a fully fleshed out character like the party members, either.

[feckless_muse]

"Stephenie Meyer claims to have made Bella Swan's character intentionally bland, so that readers could better envision themselves in her place. Maybe that's why Hawke never worked for me; I never had any idea who she was. That kind of writing just doesn't appeal to me."

In what universe is this good writing or business practice. I'm not boring, and I don't want my video incarnation to be bland and boring either!

I absolutely loved the companions and characters in DA2, but the rest of the game outside those specific characterizations felt a little lazy to me. Even just the 'backstory' for Anders' meld with Justice struck me as extremely flippant.

It was like they didn't have the energy or the time or whatever to go back to Origins and Awakenings and look at the possible outcomes and options, then project the timeline forward. It felt like they had gotten someone to play one runthrough as a templar sympathizing human noble, and then said "Here, write a lead in to the next game".

I absolutely loved the characters in DA:2, but I loved them on the merits of the artists who created the looks for the characters and the voice actors who breathed life into those characters, and definately not the stunning storyline and depth of plot.

It was in some ways like comparing A Song of Ice and Fire to something like a Dragonlance novel.

This sounds overly harsh I guess, but I was so disapointed in the vids and reviews of DA:2 that it took me nearly 6 months post release to buy it, and I had to grind through 3 playthroughs to be able to overlook the many flaws to actually really appreciated the genius of the actors in the game. For me, they saved the franchise and made it a game I can now enjoy playing over again and again.

[sakuratea]

I don't know. I honestly think Mass Effect's 3 skip most combat looks super fun. I gave up on ME1 because I couldn't drive the little car thing on easy (yes, I know I probably could have played through without it. What can I say, I'm a quitter). I know a lot of people who are looking forward to it, and I think it's a great way to get people who hate shooters playing the game.

Having played through and loved both DA games, I don't think fights were that much more random in DA2, maybe a little but not so much I didn't enjoy it. Of course, I am part of the minority that though both games were equally awesome, just different.

Maybe having writers with perspectives outside of gaming helps keep Bioware more interesting than other game studios. Watching my husband play Mass Effect is part of what made me interested in trying DA at all. That game had a great story.

[amhran_comhrac]

Don't feel bad... no one could drive the car thing. There's a reason they took it out of the second game. ;)

My problem with the DA2 fights was that you literally could not walk from one side of a region within the city to another without being attacked at least twice on the way.
It would be like not being able to go from Teagan at the Chantry to the blacksmith in redcliffe without two darkspawn mobs all up in your business on the way there.

[1smut_princess]

I detest shooters, I've managed to play most of ME1 and ME2, but it's really just so my other half will quit his whinging when I say that I prefer swords to guns. And also so I can constantly point out tropes and their various origins..etc...etc...etc...

[feckless_muse]

OH gods the little car thing...

I started another play through of ME1 last week, I gave up ten minutes and 5 falls off the side of a mountain in the blighted little car thing.

Hates it I do...

worth it for the Kaidan booty shot though *smirk*

[darkrose]

I'm curious about the source of this graphic, especially with the "Hamburger Helper" thing photoshopped in.

I also don't think Ms. Helper had anything to do with the gameplay. I know she wrote Anders, and I assume at least a couple of other characters. The worst gameplay elements were, IIRC, from the game lead, who thought that Origins was too complicated and needed to be more like a console action game.

I'm replaying Origins right now. I'm using the Console mode and making liberal use of "killallhostiles". Even when I normally play through, I do so on Easy mode, because I'm not playing for the combat: I'm playing for the characters and the story. The reason I love Bioware games is because the stories and characters are compelling. Combat mechanics aren't much different from game to game--kill things; take their stuff--so for me, it's the story that's got to stand out enough to make me want to play.

[1smut_princess]

Ah, but now I double check and see that there have been further postings on it as well as an overall removal of the OP's post for the second link. And while yes, it's pretty obvious her stuff was edited to show her in the worst possible light, it does cause one to ponder on the state of the entire industry and its trends.

I'm not saying I don't like story - there's a reason I dust off FFVI/III and replay it. And it damn sure isn't for the random fights or graphics. But during at least the initial playthrough, the gameplay itself should be interesting enough. Otherwise - it would make more sense to me to go read a book. More bang for the buck and without excess trappings.

http://web.archive.org/web/20101118135928/http://killerbetties.com/killer_women_jennifer_hepler

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/ppd0s/you_may_have_noticed_that_the_bioware_cancer_post/

[le_monde]

Zombie hubby says, "I like the fighting on DA2 much better than DA because of its varied animations. First, the skill trees are much better developed and while you could build combos with magic before, I love the interactive combos between the character classes - DA didn't have any of that. Neither, however, hold a candle to Arkham City!"

Me personally, I hated the DA2 combat, disliked how I could only talk to the companions at set times, and how I had to track them all over town in order to find them to talk to them...even when they were walking around with me. Sigh...that said, Varric is wonderful.

[1smut_princess]

I love how sarcastic JQ is...

[schreibzeug]

I thought the idea of cross-class-combos in DA2 was a neat one. Not that you couldn't shatter frozen targets in Origins too, but still.
But everything else: the warriors weilding their massive weapons like gymnastic elements, rogues teleporting and mages twirling themselves into oblivion while physically knocking templars out with their staves... No.
And the way talking to companions is implemented is just awkward. I remember getting back from the Deep Roads and being told by my journal that Fenris wanted me to visit him. I wondered, "Who? Oh, that guy I briefly met over 3 years ago and never got to talk to again. Sure. I'll get right on that."

[miri1984]

I play videogames for the story. I am totally not ashamed of this. There's a reason I love the final fantasy games - cheesy romance stories and cut scenes! One button combat! My idea of heaven. In Rome, Total War, I let the computer fight the battles, because I want to know how many children my generals are having, not how many catapults it takes to break down the walls of Carthage.

Seriously, people play videogames for different reasons, and for me, playing a videogame is the ultimate "choose your own adventure". It's a story you get to LIVE. The combat is secondary for me. I enjoy it, but it's secondary. And the medium is DIFFERENT to a book - the story is told differently when you're part of it (or your character is) when you make decisions that have ramifications (or not, as the case is in DA2, which is another reason I love it). I will occasionally pick up a game that is skill related rather than story related, but it's rare that I'll replay it the way I will one with a good story.

Basically, what I'm saying is, each to their own. I adored DA2 but I can totally understand someone who doesn't like that aspect of gameplay much detesting it.

[1smut_princess]

It was the story of DAII that made me wanna claw my eyes out. Gameplay is secondary to me, story is primary, however I still want the gameplay to be interesting rather than make me wanna get up and check my grilled cheese.

[feckless_muse]

Oooh please don't flame me for saying this guys, you're all going to hate me after reading this. I'm really not a fibber, I do love Dragon Age to bitty little peices! :O

but...

I really love the characters in Dragon Age 2 but the game itself left me really really cold. The thing that saved it for me was the awesome, adorable, and worship worthy voice actors that breathed life and personality into a very cardboard game.

The artists who designed the looks for the companions and important NPC's deserve a hug too.

I was so angry with the lack of care for the customers and fans who were around with DA:O that I didn't buy DA:2 for months after release. When I finally did buy it I think my partner might have considered homicide because of my 35hour bitchfest about the story continuity errors, cardboard feel of general game play, anime/tekken look and feel of combat, and general... otherness of 2 compared to 1.

I am really really NOT a fan of the spoken cookie cutter protagonist. It took a game where I felt epic and made me feel like a spectator to my own experiences. It felt lazy, despite the much vaunted increase in effort and cost. An RPG is supposed to make me feel in control of the plot and I felt anything but in DA:2. If I wanted to play a game where it wasn't my story I'd play COD... or maybe Witcher 2 (who did it how it really should be done).

I did however (and still do) feel the need to worship at the feet of the awesome, wonderful, and damned sexy voice actors. They really felt like they were trying to pull the hot mess together. The closeup and cutscene animators also did an awesome job. These guys are why I'm still a rabid fan of the DA universe.

I would rather trade fluid "visceral" (what a wanky lazy blanket term that is too) combat for solid, cohesive, well written and acted story in a RPG any day. DA:O was, lets face it, pretty crap in the combat and responsiveness departments, but it simply did not matter. I have played it so many times I can almost quite each characters dialogue verbatim and I still play it over and over.

All romantic thoughts aside, these games are a product, and we are customers spending good money on that product. I get very very snarky with people in customer service who don't want to serve the customer. If they don't want to play with video games they should get another job. I hated being a telesales person, so I left the job. Very different field, but the same applies. If she dislikes the product she is helping to create, it WILL come across in the end product. Even if she is only ambivalent about it, where is her incentive to stay true to the product? Why would she bother doing the game play and research it takes to get the sequel true to the first one? I wouldn't trust a bored ambivalent plastic surgeon to do a perfect boob job! (Ok that went to the weird place but you get my drift right??)

I'll shut up now...

*hides in a corner and waits to be drawn and quartered*

[le_monde]

Then add me to that pile of bodies!

I couldn't believe that I could finish DA2 in approximately 2 days...it could have been less...I wasn't really sleeping then (and no, not because the game was that interesting...) and wasn't tracking the time.

DAO hooked me so into the characters and the story that I actually began to write again after 20 years of nothing. DA2? I do include some of the toons in my stories, but only to send them out to do something. Despite the voices - Varric and Fenris could read me a bedtime story and I'd be happy - I didn't, don't, love them or hate them as much as I do Loghain, Howe, Zevran, and omg, Morrigan (all my love to Claudia Black) I hated Alistair when he wouldn't marry my Dalish elf and cried. When did Hawk ever do that?? Yes, I despised Justified Anders and yes sympathized with him all at the same horrible time, but that was it.

Joining you in the corner. Do you think if we marinated ourselves that at least they can have a BBQ afters and be happy for a minute? Teriyaki with a dash of pineapple I think for me...

[1smut_princess]

Add me as well. Briala and my hubby and Janni are quite used to hearing my rants about various...things...and in the interest of not soundin' horribly evil etc, let us just say that the only thing I can praise at all are the VA's for DAII. And that's it. That's the nicest way I can say it.

[sakuratea]

I think that if you're not in the majority here, you are a part of a well-represented minority. Many fans were terribly upset with Dragon Age 2, many people in this community felt that way.

That said, I do think that what the writer said was taken out of context; she doesn't like combat, which is not the same as not liking games. Many people in this community, fic authors who are passionate about creating worlds we have all enjoyed and still used kill all hostiles console commands.

I kind of feel like a weird Bioware Pollyanna. I guess it's because I just played a bunch of Skyrim and while I enjoyed it while I was doing it, and might pick it up periodically, I would never join communities and talk to people about it (or lurk on communities for months when I had nothing to say). I don't care what happens to anyone there. I care more about my weapons and armor I smithed than any NPC. I still care deeply about (and enjoy revisiting) my imaginary friends in the DA universe, in 2 as much or more as DAO now. But maybe that's just me.

[cipher_six]

If this was supposed to be more like Twilight, then why the hell can't I sleep with Cullen? :(


(sorry...nothing meaningful to add that hasn't already been said.)

[1smut_princess]

*laughing*Just because you feel as though there wasn't anythin' further to add, doesn't mean your presence is unwelcome! You add your presence and that counts! *admonishing in a teasing way (can't telegraph bodylanguage and tone otherwise)*