How big is a division?

[zute]

I apologize for another lame-ass question, but in the story I'm writing now this actually has relevance. It's the difference between paranoia and reasonable concern.

When you rescue Riordan he tells you that Loghain had turned away 200 Grey Wardens and two dozen divisions of cavalry.  When I looked up division sizes I got utterly enormous numbers like 10,000 for single light infantry division, in the modern army. I'm sure that must be vastly larger than in middle ages terms.

Does anyone have a feel for how many actually people that would be? 

My thanks!

Zute

Comments

[niniane]

Why wouldn't it benefit Orlais to invade Ferelden? I mean, it's got land. Trees. Probably mineral resources of some sort. They invaded before for a reason, I'd assume. If it was worth something then, why not now?

The last Blight was, what? 400 years ago? I mean, you can't even get Americans all that freaked out about flu, despite that we had an epidemic that killed more than any war only about 100 years in the past (and probably better record keeping). It wouldn't surprise me if Orlais isn't all that worried, or figures that with it's military force and large stock of Wardens that it's just fine. (After all, they can let Ferelden take the brunt of the Blight, then come in afterwards and either eliminate the Blight, or eliminate the few stragglers remaining in Ferelden. Easy peasy!)

1. I'm not sure that Ferelden will be a wasteland after the Blight. It might be, but the farmland may still be fertile and great to give to some good Orlesian peasants. Mineral resources should be intact. Likely there will still be lumber. Really, it's a gold mine!

2. I'd agree that it makes more sense to stop the Blight in Ferlden than in Orlais. But potentially Orlais thinks that they can wait until the Blight takes out 90% of the Ferelden defenses, then march in, take out the Blight, then finish off Ferelden. That's probably what I would do, were I Celene (and totally ruthless, but she seems to be.)

I think a lot depends on how risk averse you think Celene is, as well as how badly damaged you'd expect land to be post-Blight. (Like, do you destroy just the infrastructure and kill all the people, or totally salt the earth, too?) If Celene's not too risk-averse *and* doesn't think that the Blight would destroy Ferelden forever and ever, she's probably going to post her troops at the border and merrily wait it out until one side is dead and the other is weakened.

[klarabella]

Ferelden will not be a wasteland like the Anderfels is but it would take decades to recover. The Darkspawn taint the land they set their foot on, which means they render it infertile.

By the end of Origins (about one year after Ostagar) the south of Ferelden is overrun, the Hinterlands, The Southron Hills, the Western Hills in the norht (west of Highever) and huge parts of the Bannorn. Fereldan people have fled the country, seeking asylum at Orlais and the Free Marches (Kirkwall is swamped with refugees).

So no, devastated lands without a working infrastructure and a manpower deficit aren't attractive.

And as the Elysium author said, a Blight is not something that can be expected to be over in a matter of weeks or months. After Ostagar there can be no doubt what they are dealing with.

[niniane]

Let's assume that Celene believes (and this is a HUGE assumption, considering the time spans involved, etc.):

1) There is a true Blight going on in Ferelden
2) The Blight will utterly destroy everything that it touches for the rest of anyone's conceivable life

Then why risk her own army to defend Ferelden? (With really, nothing to gain if we're assuming that she's not planning an invasion). From the map, Ferelden looks like it's a reasonable distance from Orlais...why not wait until they get closer to do something? Or, again, wait until the Fereldans have taken the worst of the Blight, then deal with it on their soil (with the idea that you can swoop in and rebuild later)?

And that's assuming that we all know that Blights = total ruin. Which I'm going to guess Celene doesn't know for sure, and may or may not be willing to risk. Even if refugees are pouring in, she has to be canny enough to not believe every word they say. (And I find it hard to believe that the Blight totally destroys everything. If it does, Ferelden post game is totally screwed as it's lost a huge percentage of its land.)

I also argue with the idea that "manpower deficit" would be considered a problem in Thedas. Up until the modern era, life was cheap. Honestly, most peasants would probably love to be able to get a lot of free land with no pesky inhabitants. (Heck, this is why the Americas were settled - free land is attractive, even if it is swarming with diseases and often hostile natives - at least if you're an impoverished peasant.) I can see a bunch of empty land with no infrastructure as a great opportunity for Celene. Dump a bunch of the irritating peasants and second sons into it, if they starve, bring over more. If they thrive, yay, more country under your command without having to deal with a pesky other group of people. It seems rather win-win if there's any value to the land at all.

...and, you know, even if the land is a barren wasteland...Australia, anyone?

[elysium_fic]

Then why risk her own army to defend Ferelden?

Enlightened self-interest. Orlais is next on the Blight's menu.

[niniane]

Why would you believe Orlais was next? The Blight could go anywhere after Ferelden (I'd assume that it would hit the Dales prior to Orlais, anyway).

Plus, if it's enlightened self interest to kill the Blight, why aren't all the kingdoms in Thedas offering support?

It seems rather fishy.

[elysium_fic]

Because they're missing the "enlightened" part.

[niniane]

So...Celene is the only enlightened ruler in Thedas?

[elysium_fic]

The only one with the proximity, manpower and immediate impetus to help, yeah.

[niniane]

So we're assuming that the Free Marches, the Dales, Nevarra, Tevinter, Rivian, Antiva, etc. aren't potential allies? (Again, this just seems strange to me, esp. as from the map, it would appear as though Free Marches and the Dales are actually closer, and Antiva may have easier access due to shipping routes, etc.)

[darkrose]

"The Dales" don't exist. The land that used to be the elven nation of the Dales is currently part of Orlais.

Rivain is too far, and still hasn't recovered, population-wise, from the Blight 400 years ago. The Free Marches and Antiva lack any real central government, and Tevinter is too far and too weak to provide any help. The only place that might be able to provide troops are the Nevarrans, but we know almost nothing about them in canon except that they're the only Andrastean nation that buries rather than burns their dead.

[zute]

I think Antiva doesn't really have much of an army. That's mentioned in the game that they're not afraid of being invaded because the Crows would keep them safe.

The Free Marches doesn't have a centralized government. It's a bunch of city-states (I think). I don't know how much of a military they have. It's a wonder Orlais doesn't go invade them.

Not sure about why the rest wouldn't come and help.

[niniane]

Ah, that makes some sense. Although, again, if we see the Blight as this openly acknowledged threat that everyone is terrified (a point that I disagree with, incidentally. I'm inclined to think that there are a lot of people other than Loghain who see it as not that big a deal/really a legend/whatever, time being what is is), it's hard to see that none of them would be interested in offering assistance. I mean, even a small city state probably has a few troops that it can loan out if the attitude is "in the time of a Blight, it's all for one, and one for all!" (Again, I seriously doubt that this was the overall attitude...)

[varelishawt]

Remember that in medieval times, people just didn't travel very far. It takes a huge logistical effort just to move large armies any distance due to the need to feed them, negotiate routes through nations who would not be pleased to see an army coming through their territory, and the tremendous cost (pay, transport, food). In fact, large armies are pretty much limited to traveling along the coasts, so that boats or barges could carry supplies to them.

[varelishawt]

And rivers, I forgot to mention.

[niniane]

Yup, true. But at the same time, a lot of the other allies at least seem to be equidistant from Ferelden (or not that much farther).

I guess my point is that if the Blight is seen as this HUGE PROBLEM THAT WILL DESTROY THE WORLD by everyone (and there's universal agreement on that if we don't work together, everyone dies - something I sincerely doubt), it seems odd that only one party is offering any help...

Which certainly could feed into Loghain's (in my mind, legitimate) concern that Orlais is out to get them.

[varelishawt]

I believe the question was asked by the Warden, and Alistair mentioned that they would actually have to leave Ferelden to seek out the other Wardens in other countries to warn them. So it seems the other nations don't even know about the Blight yet, except for Orlais.

[niniane]

That's possible...as long as we ignore the comment above about refugees everywhere! ;)

I'd be inclined to think that at least a few other nations heard rumors over the two years, but I'm inclined to think that most would shrug it off as "yeah, whatever, all the crazy stuff you hear in bars these days..."

[varelishawt]

How many of the refugees (I'm inclined to think they would flee to the nearest nations like Orlais, Free Marches, Nevarra and stop there) could actually reach the top levels of the governments in the nations? So, yeah, the news of the Blight would remain in rumors, and, like I said, sending an army is costly, would take time, and for no forseeable gain except for the gratitude of Ferelden. Shortsighted, yes, but that's government for you.

[niniane]

Yup, Ferelden is screwed. (Poor Ferelden...) I'm inclined to think that most foreign countries are like "blight, what blight?" and even if they buy it, go "eh, well, we'll worry about that when it appears on our shores..."

Other than Orlais, which as I said, seems a tad suspicious...