Rule 17 Writing Question

[prisoner_24601]

Since I'm always curious about other people's creative process and how they write, I thought I'd ask the other fic writers on this community how much editing and trimming do you do to your work? Do you edit and trim at all? Write a first draft and then are finished? How much of your stuff ends up on the figurative cutting room floor? I'm wondering if other writers love to edit and pick at stuff the way I do or if they have an entirely different way of writing.

I know that for me, I'm a huge fan of Strunk & White's Rule 17 (Omit needless words) and that most of the time, I tend to do as much work editing, trimming and cutting my fics as I do on the actual first draft. And I've definitely had stories where my betas (or myself) have chopped huge parts out and trimmed the dialogue, etc... to pick up the pacing and the rhythm of the fic, and always my stories seem better for it.

So tell me your creative process because I'd love to know!

Comments

[niniane]

In general, I probably spend as much time to twice as much time editing as writing. It's not unusual for me to hack off half of what I write as a rough draft. That said, it's pretty variable. Some stories get very little editing, as they just worked, while others are completely rewritten 4-5 times. There's no hard and fast rule for me. So while my average is probably 2 times as much time spent editing/rewriting as writing, and writing about twice as much as I need, I've definitely had stories on either end.

That said, my first drafts are crazy rough. Like, I just type as fast as I can to get the ideas out. Which means that they are awful, terrible things that I would let no one read in a million years. So it doesn't necessarily take that long to generate them. Beyond that, a lot of time the ideas I had change in the writing of them, so once I'm done, it's nice to sit back and go "what themes go through this entire story?" and change what I've written to reflect that/add tension/etc.

[prisoner_24601]

I wish I could bang out a first draft and let stuff flow and then go back and revise. I seem incapable of it though. I've never been able to really turn off the internal editor enough to do this, although I am jealous of those who can. It's like I lurch forward for a page or so and then have to go back and mess with stuff, lurch forward another two pages, go back and pick at all three... etc... I think this is probably why I'm on the slower end of writers.

It's actually hard for me to tell how much I cut, because most of the time I'm doing it as I go along, but I'm guessing that it's probably a good 30% of what I write before I even get to the end of the first draft. After that it just depends. Like the one time I sent a fic to one of my betas and she cut out huge chunks of the dialogue - but she was totally right in that instance and the fic was so much better without all of that extra junk.

[aithne]

Depends, really. For a shorter standalone piece, I generally spend at least as much time revising as I do editing. For the longer chapters of Old Roads, I give myself a couple of hours at the end to do final edits, but I do a lot of editing as I go along--every time I sit down with the chapter, I read over what I currently have and tweak it. (And since a chapter takes me 2-3 weeks at this point, that's a lot of sitting down and tweaking.)

(And right now, since I'm in the middle of editing a story collection for someone else, I'm not doing much writing at all. It's driving me slightly mad.)

[prisoner_24601]

I do a lot of editing as I go along too, going back and tweaking stuff I've already written for a chapter or a short when I sit down to write. Sometimes that can really be a good thing because it gets me into the grove of what I was just doing and things just flow, and sometimes it's terrible for me because I have a horrible time turning off the internal editor so I can just move forward and get that first draft out.

I have been known to pick at one paragraph of a short story/chapter for days - which is something I try very hard not to do. But it's difficult for me to move forward when I know there's a problem that's going to have a domino effect throughout the rest of what I'm writing. Plus, it's like a puzzle that I can't stop messing with until I figure it out and sometimes I wish I could just turn that off.

[zute]

I write by the seat of my pants generally. An idea grips me and I hold on for dear life. I have to write to see what happens next.

I should probably change that habit and write with more deliberation... keep meaning to do it but I get into a frenzy and can't stop. I'm horrible at proofreading my own stuff and usually can't find my errors until after I've hit the publish button, and sometimes not even then. I don't have any emotional distance from what I've written for weeks, and then only after I've read it a whole bunch over and over. I should go back and rewrite after I gain that distance, I suppose.

I think I tend to be terse to a fault with my descriptions so I often times have to go back and flesh things out a bit more.

Occasionally I'll start writing something and think... eh, this doesn't advance the story or the characters and then I start over.

I think when I finally finish my Lucy story I'll try to restart The Blood Puppet and be more deliberative about the writing process.

[prisoner_24601]

I write by the seat of my pants generally. An idea grips me and I hold on for dear life. I have to write to see what happens next.

That's fantastic when this happens, isn't it? This has happened to me for a few shorts I've written, although it's definitely not the norm for me. I try to roll with it the rare times that it does and just enjoy the ride.

I should go back and rewrite after I gain that distance, I suppose.

I can understand not doing that though. I mean, there's only so much free time out there, and there are a lot of shiny story ideas that it's possible to tackle, so I totally get being all "Okay, this could probably use more polish, but I'm really interested in moving forward." I've done it myself. And sometimes I'll only have people beta things when I know there's a problem and I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell it is.

Then again, focusing on one story is another problem I have. I am sort of amazed by the stamina of people who can write the long stuff. I'm in the middle of multi chapter fic that's only going to be about fourteen chapters and cap out at about 30k - and I'm hyperventilating on how the hell I'm going to get it done, lol. I am in awe of people who have the stamina, focus and drive to write the longer stuff.

[niniane]

I love that "idea gripping" bit. I can hyper focus, which when done while writing, is magic.

...then again, sometimes I produce hyper-focus crap. Damn you brain! *sigh* But sometimes it is glorious! Glorious!

I usually have to go back through dialogue, too, and add other stuff. I really like dialogue, so have lots of "heads floating in space" scenes. *sigh*

[nithu]

I'm a very stop/start writer but do little editing during or after. I usually have quite a clear idea what I want to happen in a chapter, sometimes lots of ideas... a sort of series of snapshots. I tend to write a bit, play bejwelled for ten minutes while I sound out the next but in my head and carry on like that indefinitely.

I usually give it the once over for obvious mistakes, sometimes tweak it a bit, then dump the whole lot on my beta reader. Sometimes she cuts loads, sometimes remakably little. I do tend to get carried away and 'over describe' things. I do a lot of plotting and planning, doing mindless things like playing solitaire :)

I do no that my story would probably be a mess without my beta reader. She's always apologising for ruthlessly cutting bits out, but I love it because I'm hopeless at deciding what can go and what needs to stay. It's very rarely that I insist on something staying. It does worry me though when she says something is "bold"!

[nithu]

Ugh! That should say "I do know..." I need a beta reader for my comments!

[dalishstorm]

I only skim for glaring stuff, if I let it sit long enough to edit I get anxious and never post it. I've started using betas, but if it takes more than two days I have to post it anyway. That said, I generally post to BSN a day before I post elsewhere, because I don't care if my flist sees errors, they're my pals and point them out.

[prisoner_24601]

I can see how that would be. I tend to get twitchy letting finished stuff sit too. I'm amazed that people can write whole stories without posting parts of them first or have chapter buffers. I just don't have the willpower for that. I need my instant gratification!

[lenna_nightrunner]

I try to go for a pretty good product the first time, so there's not a lot of cutting down later. I try to do that as I go. I write very much out of order: if I feel like writing a scene from later in a chapter or even much later in the story, I'll go ahead and write it and save it for later. The ones that are written way in advance get the most editing because they have to change based on what ended up coming before them.

I'm definitely an edit-as-I-go writer, so once I get the bits and pieces of different scenes put together the way they're supposed to go and bridge them together, I usually only have to do a readthrough, then give to Shimmy to beta, then get it back, edit again, then done!

If anyone's interested in how Shimmy and I write Vir Lath Sa'vunin together, that's a pretty neat process. Using GoogleDocs we keep all of our notes, chapters, character background files, etc, in documents we can both access. We will often both be in a document at once, editing or writing together or separately, sharing ideas through GoogleDocs' in-document chat feature and notes system.

We often work on chapters simultaneously based on what the other person is writing in their chapter, i.e. I might see an event in Shimmy's chapter or know how she's outlined it and begin working on my next one, tweaking as needed after she's finished. For the most part Shimmy writes both Tesni and Caerwyn for her chapters and I write both of them for mine. This allows for Tesni's perception of Caerwyn to be different from his perception of himself, and visa versa. Sometimes we'll teak each other's descriptions or dialog if we think something's out of character, but that seems to be needed less and less now.

It's a blast and it's improved both of our writing a lot in ways I'm not sure we anticipated. Fun fact: the reason the story is written in first person past tense is because I sucked at first person and she sucked at past tense XD

[niniane]

I'm kind of amazed that you can do the whole simultaneous chapters thing. That is awesome, and yet seems confusing. ;) Thanks for sharing the process, though. That's super interesting!

[prisoner_24601]

That's really interesting that you can write out of order. I know people who totally do this, and I cannot for the life of me do that for a multi chapter fic. Although I do sort of write one shots that all tie together, and I don't write those in chronological order, so I guess that's pretty similar? My fear of doing this in a multi-chapter fic is that I'll write the super fun parts and never go back and write the necessary in between bits.

That's really interesting how the two of you collaborate together. I've done quite a bit of collaborative writing myself in other fandoms and it's so much fun. I have a writing partner that I've been collaboratively writing with for about five years now and we do it totally different than you two do. We sort of brainstorm for plot and the characters we want to write. Then we each pick our characters and and decide whose POV each scene needs to be in. So whoever has the pov character writes the narrative and description for that scene, but the dialogue itself and any of the actions that go along with it is written back and forth between the two of us over gmail where she always writes her characters and actions and I always write mine. It's almost like a roleplay, I guess and it leads to really surprising places. It's cool when I get a message back and her character reacts to something mine has said in a totally surprising way.

And we edit a lot. Because in real life she's a pro editor, which is awesome for our fic.

[amhran_comhrac]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who doesn't use a beta.

I never do rough drafts, per se. I write like I intend it to be the final draft, proofreading and editing as I go, and then scan it over for anything I want to change or missed as I wrote. Sometimes I end up cutting a big chunk (although that's usually in favor of saving it for another chapter), sometimes I don't change anything. Usually in terms of the proofreading part I think I'm pretty good about getting it right the first time.

I also jump around in time in my writing, though. I have the last few chapters of AOA written, most of the epilogue, and a few chunks of major scenes before that. I had several major chapters of AOA written for ages before I posted them since I knew what I wanted to do.

I tend to get ideas as I'm doing other things, so writing is often just putting down on paper what I've already composed in my head.

Most of my short pieces I post here are for timed prompts, so sometimes they get next to no editing at all: Just an hour from first sentence to the last.

[aithne]

I don't use a beta, either. (Well, i have a crit group, but it's not really the same thing...)

[prisoner_24601]

Interesting. I've never tried a timed prompt. I don't think I could turn off the internal editor enough to do one.

I'm like niniane - sometimes I get things betaed, sometimes not. I think in a perfect world I would but sometimes it's just something for the kmeme or it's a challenge fic with a deadline date or it seems to be working well enough that I don't need a second pair of eyes.

But I lot of times, especially when I get stuck or something isn't working, I think I'd go crazy without a second and third pair of eyes. And they catch stuff that you'd never think of. I personally find it to be extremely helpful.

[scarylady]

I write once - I punctuate and trim words out, or tidy up, as I type. I write in sequential order, I never skip ahead.

Like Nithu, if I'm stuck, or I need time for the flow of the events to settle in my head, then I bugger off and do something else - beta, play games, read, whatever.

I read it through once when I've finished a chapter, just to check for any missing punctuation or suchlike and then it goes to my beta for checking immediately. She tends to send it back with only a few minor comments.

I have absolutely no idea how anyone can write any other way. It would drive me daft to bung it all down and then go back over it. The lump I'd left behind me would prey on my mind so much, I wouldn't be able to write.

The idea of going over it and trimming chunks out also horrifies me; when it's written, the next part flows from it - taking pieces out would ruin everything after it, so the whole lot would have to be binned and started from scratch. Not going to happen.

My preference is third person, past tense with strictly only one PoV at a time for the entire section (not the entire chapter). I struggle with first person, I find it very stilted both to write and to read.

I'd like to learn third person omniscient; but I'm not sure I understand the rules. I'd only want to do it, if I can do it properly, as sometimes it can appear quite slipshod.

[aithne]

Third person omni is *hard*. I'm so much more comfortable slipping inside someone's head for third person limited, both as a writer and a reader.

[sleepyowlet]

Most of my writing actually happens inside my head. I think about what I want to write, and when I actually start typing it's as if my inner voice is dictating things. I don't usually edit out a lot (maybe I should?) because I only write what sounds good to me. As for plot-editing - I do that in those periods when I can't seem to write anything (like right now - I'm having a terrible Writer's Block) so I think and shift stuff around inside my head.
My betas seem to be fine with what I write, content-wise, that is. I never quite know, because I usually don't really get any feedback on that. I really would love some, though. I never quite know what I can do to improve a story, which POV to use, if the pacing is all right...
Sometimes I think I'm too hasty.
And I have a problem with finishing things. I plan out a story - and then the well just dries up. Like "Middle Ground" on my journal - I can't seem to find a way to write a conclusion that is at least halfway original. And don't get me started on "Truth or Dare"...
I like switching POVs around, but in separate segments. The skipping ahead and fill something out later thing usually doesn't work for me too.
Oh, and I tend to draw my OCs so I can get a feeling for who they are. Or sometimes I sketch something and then write it. Like reverse illustration :D

[prisoner_24601]

I'm a big fan of editing myself, although how much someone needs is really hard to tell and goes by a story by story basis. Some stories seem to need more than others in my experience. There are those here that disagree with me though.

Pacing is one of those really tricky and nebulous things about stories that if it's off, is a major problem but it's not so easy to spot. That's an area that I think editing stuff down and cutting the stuff that's unnecessary really, really helps.

I also have a hard time finishing things, not so much because I don't know how to finish them, but because I get distracted by new and shiner stuff and want to wander off. Focus is totally a problem of mine.

[zute]

I've skipped ahead a few times when I had an endpoint I wanted to work toward but couldn't quite see how to get there. Sometimes it helps to write out that pivotal chapter first.

For me writing is kind of like reading. I keep writing because I want to see what happens next. :D I know what my major plot elements are but how I implement them is a surprise until I've actually written it usually.

I remember writing the Lyrium War was pretty fun that way. I started that story just wanting a love story with Anders and Neria and knowing there would be conflict with the Chantry. I totally didn't know I was going to *SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER* make that big-badda-boom or... a bunch of stuff.

[prisoner_24601]

I'm totally afraid if I skip ahead and write, that I'll never go back and finish what I've started so I tend not to do that. But lot of people say they do this so it intrigues me greatly.

[elysium_fic]

I write what the voices tell me to write.

No. Seriously.

I decide roughly what is supposed to happen in a chapter, then I decide whose POV I want to tell it from. The majority of the time, this will be my PC, but sometimes once I've decided what happens in the chapter, I realize it really needs to come from someone else's POV.

So I spend a little time listening to that character, either by going in-game to talk to them, or simply composing some dialogue in my head, until I feel like I really have their voice in my mind, and then I begin writing. And I write what they "say" in my head. I write it as I hear it in my mind, with their cadence and word choices.

Sometimes in the course of writing a chapter, a character decides not to play. This usually means the character has decided that what I decided would happen in the chapter doesn't work for them, which means I either have to find a way to make it work, or change my plan. For example, in my early planning, Teagan was supposed to get really pissed off with Riona in Chapter 13. But, no, he decided he was pretty much cool with what she confessed to him.

If the character is wordy, so is the chapter likely to be. The sentences will be longer, more flowing, constructed in a certain way. On the other hand, if the character is brusque, so will the chapter be. I've got a chapter coming up from Sten's POV, for example, that will be my shortest chapter to date.

Because I write in the character's voice, going through and hacking out words just for the sake of shortening things would really muck things up, so I don't do that. Sometimes, I get the voice wrong, or the character afterward decides that no, that's not really the way they would do things, and then the character will walk up, tap me on the shoulder, and demand a rewrite.

Fucking divas.

[1smut_princess]

EXACTLY! :flails: That is how I feel as well. Listen to the voices in yer head!

[1smut_princess]

I do cut some stuff. You will only rarely see me cut scenes. As for wordflow... it depends on the character.
If their speech/thought patterns tend to be very stream of consciousness... then no. I barely touch them except to make them not sound like morons.
But beyond a rough draft, I send it to a beta, then we throw it on googledocs after she's looked at it and gone through it a few times, then we go over it together, and then I go over it. It doesn't take anywhere near as long to do (for me at least as I'm absent for the bulk of it) to edit as to write.
Why do all that when I've got splendid perfect peoples like Amku and bellaknoti at my back? They usually tell me to go away and let them at it, so I can get back to things that they want me to do: like writing more.

[prisoner_24601]

Interesting. One of the reasons I like to edit, is because I tend to learn a lot by doing it. By sitting down and trying to be critical about what needs to stay and what needs to go, is a great learning experience. But I think we might be talking about two different things: editing and proofreading.

[darkrose]

I don't do rough drafts; more often than not I'm writing to a deadline at the last possible minute. Mostly I edit as I go. My "beta" process usually consists of telesilla looking over the Google Doc for anything obvious before I hit post. When I do have a formal beta, it's in Google Docs, which has really been a godsend to me.

In previous fandoms, Ruth an I did a lot of co-writing, and we generally used the same group of friends as betas. The two we ask most often have some definite style sensibilities, including avoiding adverbs (especially those that end in -ly), a preference for straightforward, unflowery prose, and a fanatical adherence to the "show, don't tell" principle. As a result, my style, such as it is, can be spare to a fault. I rely on the fanfic shortcuts, like being able to skimp on description because I assume a certain amount of audience knowledge.

I have started doing outlines, or at least plot summaries. I don't always follow them strictly, but it at least gives me a place to start.

[niniane]

I rely on the fanfic shortcuts, like being able to skimp on description because I assume a certain amount of audience knowledge.


OMG, this! At some point I realized that in ffic, people know who the characters are...I don't need to tell them! It was like some ray of magical insight that made me realize "I don't need to tell boring parts of the story", and people will still know what I'm doing because they've played the game! It was the best feeling ever!

[decantate]

My whole writing style is that Rule 17. Sometimes I have to be told to add in words so people can understand, but most of the time I try to give just a tiny bit of suggestion about where things are going so that the reader fills in the blanks. My entire Blood Poison fic was written without a beta and a lot of it was first drafts. I'm much better at taking out words than putting them in.

It's really kind of silly, me being a fanfic writer. I end up just telling the absolute bare bones of what needs to be said. If I could use a chemical formula or draw a diagram of what is happening, it would be so much easier.

I don't know if this answers your question. It's lovely to read everyone else's responses!

[prisoner_24601]

I'm equally amazed at the people who can write the very short stuff as well as the long fics. Do you write out longer stuff and then edit things down or does it come out short when you first write it?

[aroihkin]

...lol there's no way my brain can currently handle reading all these other comments when I can't even grok reading fic right now. XD

But, uh, usually my process is something along these lines:

Step 1: Re-read whatever I've already written of it, or if just starting, stare off into space for a while. If trying to sleep at the time, stare off into space and debate if I should get up to write even though sleep is kinda rare.
Step 2: Stare off into space for a while / some more.
Step 3: For kinky smut -- research/review relevant bits via the internet's most well-known resource: porn. And then, whether smut or otherwise, poke at the characters involved until they say something interesting.
Step 4: Stare off into space some more.
Step 5: Write a page or so.
Step 6: Re-read that page, nitpicking at details.
Step 7: Get interrupted by roomates and de-railed from writing for half the day or worse.
Step 8: Come crawling back, see: Step 1.

I end up re-reading what I write so many times that by the time a chapter or k!meme fill is half-done, the first half is an incoherent mess of shit to me that I can no longer grok. And yet I'll still force myself to try to re-read it another half-dozen times to find missing words, fucked-up tenses from when I re-wrote a sentence and missed a few words, etc.

Final step: I'MGOINGTOPRINTTHISANDBURNITWITHFIRE ...post it before I can delete it.
Optional final step: Gnash my teeth over having posted that piece of fucking shit and asdgasdgasdgaweewawegt.

And then reviews/feedback trickle in and I go from D: to :o to :D.

[prisoner_24601]

Hmm. Your steps sound very similar to mine. Especially this one:

Final step: I'MGOINGTOPRINTTHISANDBURNITWITHFIRE ...post it before I can delete it.

That's pretty much how I know that I'm done. As in: "I don't care if this fic sucks ass or not, but I can't stand looking at in anymore."