peopleofthedas | How big is a division?

I see what you're saying, but Ferelden doesn't seem like one of those cultures, and Cailan strikes me as a very, very shelterd man. Ferelden seems to be much more of leadership due to bloodlines where the ruling class uses that as a justification for keeping their power rather than showing skill through strength and accomplishments.

Actually, you've got it entirely backward:

From the table-top RPG Player's Guide:

However, in Ferelden,
unlike nearly all other countries in Thedas,
members of the nobility are not considered to
be intrinsically better or afforded more rights
than any other class; they just have different
ones. It is true that nobles are generally
treated with deference, but this is often due
more to the (correct) assumption of martial
ability than social status. Nobles from other
lands frequently find Ferelden commoners to
be phenomenally insolent in comparison to the
fawning treatment that they are used to.
The primary purpose of the nobility of Ferelden
is to fight for their people against all threats—
human, darkspawn, or otherwise. While nearly
all Fereldans boast some level of martial ability,
nobles are expected to excel at warfare—it
is, literally, their “job.”

It says on the wiki that the king is actually the Teyrn of Ferelden, so this rule definitely applies to the king as well. The king is expected to fight alongside his people. That Loghain and Eamon both didn't want him to do so could likely be a statement of their assessment of Cailan's skills as a warrior, rather than an inherent mentality of "protect the king."

Since the Landsmeet is perfectly willing to keep Anora on as queen, or they accept Alistair only because the Warden who has already won them over vouches for him, or they let the Warden promote him or herself to the throne alongside Anora or Alistair once the Warden has gained their approval, I think it's pretty clear that the Landsmeet IS thinking in terms of capable leadership, rather than bloodlines.

In fact, no matter how persuasive you are, ultimately the Landsmeet only follows you if you defeat Loghain in a fight.

The argument can definitely be made that with his insistence on supporting the Theirin bloodline, Arl Eamon is veering away from this tradition, but this may also be attributed to the fact that Eamon has a blood connection to Cailan and a connection via fosterage to Alistair and therefore it's in Eamon's interest to keep the Theirin dynasty in power. Plus, there's the fact that he believes Loghain has gone mad.

The argument could also be made, though not very strongly, that Ferelden society is trending away from this, considering some of the rumors you can get from Bodhan Feddic or the innkeepers deal with Loghain and Anora's commoner roots being an issue. But on the whole, the "they're looked down on because they're commoners" facet is a bit overblown in fannon and doesn't really address Ferelden culture as its established canonically.

Edited 2010-11-24 18:37 (UTC)

But on the whole, the "they're looked down on because they're commoners" facet is a bit overblown in fannon and doesn't really address Ferelden culture as its established canonically.

I disagree that it's overblown. The only argument any NPC in the actual game makes against Anora being Queen is her bloodline. That's it. They're going to yank her job and crown away from her, even though they admit she's good at what she does, soley because of her commoner roots. To me, that's the ultimate in looking down on someone because she's a commoner. Since it comes from the actions and dialogue in the game, that's as canonnical as it gets.

The primary purpose of the nobility of Ferelden is to fight for their people against all threats—human, darkspawn, or otherwise. While nearly all Fereldans boast some level of martial ability,nobles are expected to excel at warfare—it
is, literally, their “job.”

Sure. This is probably exactly what the nobility tells itself in order to legitimize and justify their oppressive class structure and limiting opportunities for people born below their priviledged station as well as justifying their taxes and revenues on the commoners to support their fighters.

That Loghain and Eamon both didn't want him to do so could likely be a statement of their assessment of Cailan's skills as a warrior, rather than an inherent mentality of "protect the king."

That's a fair point. Cailan may have very well sucked as a fighter or had been so shelterd that he wasn't fit for the front lines. It's also possible that they're just freaked out about sucession and the chaos his death might cause (which is entirely possible due to being in a giant pitched battle, even if everything went the way it was supposed to) since no heir has been produced. Or even a combination of both.

The only argument any NPC in the actual game makes against Anora being Queen is her bloodline. That's it. They're going to yank her job and crown away from her, even though they admit she's good at what she does, soley because of her commoner roots. To me, that's the ultimate in looking down on someone because she's a commoner. Since it comes from the actions and dialogue in the game, that's as canonnical as it gets.

That's what Eamon says, but Eamon isn't the Landsmeet. Clearly the Landsmeet is still willing to follow her. Aside from Eamon and whomever you happen to be asking for rumors, who disses on Anora for being a commoner?

Sure. This is probably exactly what the nobility tells itself in order to legitimize and justify their oppressive class structure and limiting opportunities for people born below their priviledged station as well as justifying their taxes and revenues on the commoners to support their fighters.

Where exactly is this claim coming from?

That's what Eamon says, but Eamon isn't the Landsmeet. Clearly the Landsmeet is still willing to follow her. Aside from Eamon and whomever you happen to be asking for rumors, who disses on Anora for being a commoner?

Yeah the Landsmeet is willing to follow her under certain circumstances (personally I think that it's completely ridiculous that the warden is the one who makes this decision and makes no sense whatsoever and is pure game mechanics, but whatever), but they are also equally willing to toss her aside for a guy that has zero leadership expierence. The fact that they're even willing to do that at all (in the middle of such a huge crisis) to someone who by all accounts (even from her enemies) is extremely competent, speaks volumes about attitudes towards commoners.

I mean, really, if they were thinking in terms of competent leadership, they wouldn't even seriously consider Alistair at all. His only qualification for the job is his bloodline. So this is hardly a society that's built on advancing people baised on merit. The people who do manage to break out of their class and advance upwards are both lucky and very skilled.

Where exactly is this claim coming from?

It's a feudalistic medieval society where station is decided almost entirely by birth. You don't think that would be inherently oppressive? The nobility have to justify their position at the top of the food chain somehow, so they do by taking money from their people, using it to fund their fighters and claiming that it's necessary. That's how medieval societies work.

And this codex assertion is totally unrealistic:

However, in Ferelden, unlike nearly all other countries in Thedas, members of the nobility are not considered to be intrinsically better or afforded more rights than any other class; they just have different
ones.

I mean the idea that the Cousland family would somehow have no better rights than a commoner is laughable. They live in a position of extreme wealth and priviledge and resources and for the codex to assume that it makes no difference in everyday life or in the rights of a commoner is extremely unrealistic.

His only qualification for the job is his bloodline.

And the fact that the Warden, who has persuaded them with proof of Loghain's crimes, vouches for him, AND the fact that Alistair or the Warden (or the Warden's champion) has defeated Loghain in single combat, thus proving him/herself a capable fighter.

In fact, the "fighter" detail is the deciding factor. You can persuade the Landsmeet, but if you can't beat Loghain in the duel, you lose. The Landsmeet follows your recommendation on Alistair because you or Alistair have proven yourselves capable in single combat.

It's a feudalistic medieval society where station is decided almost entirely by birth.

No, it's a fantasy game loosely (very loosely) based on medieval society in atmosphere. In that society, power derives from the Freeholders and Banns, not from higher nobility. The banns hold power because the freeholders GIVE it to them. The king and teyrns hold power because the arls and banns GIVE it to them, and can take it away.

In fact, a large part of the civil war is due to the fact that Loghain is making demands of the bannorn that he has no authority to make. He names himself regent, even though the ruler of Ferelden is decided by the Landsmeet. That's a no-no. He's demanding troops and provisions the bannorn have no obligation to yield to him. In short, he's acting like a tyrant and trampling all over their traditional autonomy.

And this codex assertion is totally unrealistic:

It's not meant to be realistic. It's a fantasy game world, not reality.

In fact, the "fighter" detail is the deciding factor. You can persuade the Landsmeet, but if you can't beat Loghain in the duel, you lose. The Landsmeet follows your recommendation on Alistair because you or Alistair have proven yourselves capable in single combat.

If that's the case, then shouldn't the PC Warden, Wynne, Zev, Morrigan or the mabari be the leader of the country if they win?

I'd totally be rooting for the dog. :)

Actually it's quite funny if you try to choose the Dog as your champion.

But, again, see the part I've said several times now about the fact that they follow your RECOMMENDATION because you won the fight, not that the winner automatically becomes leader, only that it gives their recommendation the necessary amount of weight to make the Landsmeet play along.

If the Warden's recommendation was outweighed by national/racial/magical/species prejudice on the part of the Landsmeet (as would be the case with Zev/an elf trying to make himself king/Wynne or Morrigan/Dog, the Landsmeet would still overrule him/her.

So long as the Warden makes a recommendation they can live with, such as keeping Anora (a commoner but a capable queen) on the throne, the Landsmeet will follow IF AND ONLY IF the Warden has proven him/herself a capable fighter, or a leader of capable fighters, by either personally defeating Loghain or choosing a champion who can personally defeat Loghain.

In the end, it comes down to the martial prowess, not blood, not even persuasive ability. That's the world the writers created. It may not be one familiar or realistic to those who expect it to be an exact analog of historical societies, but that's how it is.

<--totally wants Dog to be the next king

<--or maybe Leliana. She's also human, right? And not a mage!

If this made the least amount of sense, why would anyone let Alistair be king? I mean, going against him we have:

1) No experience running a country
2) So not a natural leader that immediately gives all responsibility in dealing with the Blight to the junior warden (this gets especially lulzy at -100% approval)
3) Ex-templar (so possibly biased due to Chantry ties)
4) Grey Warden (so likely a biased leader due to that)

Going for him we have:

1) Son of Maric
2) Kind of cute
3) ?

Unless there's a lot more going for Alistair than I would have thought, it would appear that his main claim to becoming king is hereditary. So I'm inclined to go with Pris on this one. I mean, sure, Ferelden is a lot more egalitarian than most societies. But...equal? Oh, come on...even Loghain gives his whole thing about the only way you can make it big in the country is through blood...either that which you are born with, or that you are willing to shed for the country.

Going for him we have:

1) Son of Maric
2) Kind of cute
3) Defeats Loghain in personal combat and/or is vouched for by someone capable of defeating Loghain in personal combat.

In the end, that's the deciding factor.

Well...not necessarily. Usually I have either my Warden or Morrigan defeat him. I suppose the vouching part, but really?

If the criteria for running the country is being the #1 best fighter, we ought to be celebrating Cauthrien as queen. (Unless, of course, your Warden does the weird thing that one guy did and kills her singlehandedly with his arcane mage or whatever.)

...alternately, this theory would also support the arch-demon's claim to be King of Ferelden.

It's not that hard to kill Cauthrien. Lots of players do it.

And the Warden defeats the archdemon, so the Warden is still the biggest badass.

The odds really aren't that fair. There are four of you vs. one of her. I mean, she has the guards, but it's not really a one on one dual as they're mostly trash. (Unless, of course, you game the system and bring just the warden. Then, I suppose that Cauthrien has the advantage with her trash mobs.)

Regardless, that she's not even a Bann makes me think that there may be more to Fereldan politics than who can kill who in solo combat. Because she's generally seen as just a knight while Anora is Queen, and Loghain is Regent...and she's generally considered harder to kill than Loghain. (And you never even fight Anora. I wonder if she's just that awesome?)

And the Warden does beat the arch demon, but again with several armies, a full party, etc. I'm fairly sure that if it was arch-demon vs. lone warden that the warden would lose, no matter how awesome he or she is. Then again, probably someone has managed to do this...but it's not really a normal game scenario to deliberately storm Fort Drakon alone, then to refuse to use the army summoner.

I think that it really points to that Fereldan politics are not determined entirely by who kills who in a dual. I mean, they are in the game, but that's mostly game mechanics + either the Landsmeet voted for you and Loghain is just being a dick, or alternately, the Landsmeet voted against you, but got freaked out when you just started slaughtering everyone and figured "what the heck, he's the son of Maric, and we really don't want to have to clean up any more bloodstains..."

The odds really aren't that fair. There are four of you vs. one of her. I mean, she has the guards, but it's not really a one on one dual as they're mostly trash. (Unless, of course, you game the system and bring just the warden. Then, I suppose that Cauthrien has the advantage with her trash mobs.)

Uh, really?

Because I play on Easy Mode. And I've managed to beat Cauthrien exactly once in six or seven tries--with my mage--and I was the only one in my party left standing. AFAIC, she's the hardest fight in the game, hands down.

I'm impressed. I think that I tried to solo-kill Cauthrien once,and just figured screw it afterwards. I'm playing for fun and storyline, not a super challenge. ;) Obviously none of my Wardens should be allowed to decide the shoes they put on in the morning. :P

But, yeah, there are super crazy people out there who have shown that you can solo Cauthrien, with one player, on Nightmare. I don't know *where* they find the patience, but they've done it...

My point, though, is that if the ruler of the Ferelden is determined solely by their ability to kill people in solo combat, that poor Cauthrien has obviously missed the memo. As you pointed out, she's hard to kill! So if ability to kill things = #1 trait for a ruler of Ferelden (which I think is the point that Elysium is making?), that Cauthrien should be Queen. Not that I think she should be. I disagree with the entire premise, which is why I brought up some rather silly examples.

I never said "solely." I said it's the deciding factor in swaying the Landsmeet.

The monarch needs the Landsmeet's approval to rule. The Landsmeet bases that approval upon a number of factors (they're not going to follow an elf, or a mage, or a non-Fereldan, or a mabari.)

Noble blood is not one of those factors, because the Landsmeet will follow Anora if the Warden recommends her.

But chief among the factors that stack up for or against the Warden in the Landsmeet is whether or not the Warden can win a fight.

Unless the Warden can, the Landsmeet will not heed his/her recommendation, and the Warden loses, no matter how persuasive the Warden was otherwise or how compelling the evidence against Loghain.

Conversely (I've never played this track, but this is how I understand it) the Warden can fail to persuade the Landsmeet in the debate portion but still win them over with the duel.

Edited 2010-11-24 20:58 (UTC)

They can, but again, I'm fairly sure that the dual is more an issue of game mechanics than necessarily a major qualification for ruling. (Since, otherwise, the country would be controlled by the best warrior.)

Alternately, you still haven't given any reasons for Alistair's rule to make any sense other than bloodlines (which you reject), and combat (which you claim is important, but not the only important criteria).

It's a silly example, true, but if the sole qualification to being monarch of Ferelden is being a) a good warrior and b) a human who is not a mage, why not Cauthrien?

Assuming that Alistair's royal blood is a major factor seems pretty logical to me (hence why Eamon brings it up any number of times and why I think that it's why the Landsmeet is willing to accept him as king). But if you reject that as a possibility, I'm curious as to what else you think qualifies Alistair as a ruler.

Alternately, you still haven't given any reasons for Alistair's rule to make any sense other than bloodlines (which you reject), and combat (which you claim is important, but not the only important criteria).

1) He's not "tainted by association" by a relationship with Loghain. Not an insurmountable factor, but a significant one
2) He has one other voice who is respected in the Landsmeet on his side
3) He's a Grey Warden and a good portion of the Landsmeet is spent convincing people that the Blight is the pertinent threat.

Fereldans follow those capable of leading them in wartime.

Frankly, Anora hasn't demonstrated that, for all that she has been a capable administrator during peacetime. But the moment the fighting started, she took a back seat to her father and let him start a reign of terror that trampled over the rights of the banns and weakened their defenses against the darkspawn until half the country was overrun. She's not the one who has been out there actually fighting the darkspawn and gathering an army.

if the sole qualification to being monarch of Ferelden is being a) a good warrior and b) a human who is not a mage, why not Cauthrien?

Um, because no one is putting Cauthrien forth as an option? We're limited by the menu of choices given us in-game, which are support Anora or support Alistair.

Assuming that Alistair's royal blood is a major factor seems pretty logical to me

A factor, because of tradition, but not a major one. Otherwise, why would the Landsmeet be willing to accept Anora, who is common-born, with equal alacrity.

Why? Because the Warden says so, and the Warden has proven him/herself as a fighter and leader.

Fereldans follow those capable of leading them in wartime. It's that simple.

Well the Warden says so seems to be mostly a concession to game mechanics/the ability of the PC to do anything within the game that they want. You figure that this is the same argument used as to why the Landsmeet gives a shit about what a casteless dwarf has to say. (Or likely would, in any other circumstance.) Or why what the warden does in Orzammar matters whatsoever. (Although at least there, they sort of explained it by giving the Paragon's approval to the winner/the deshyrs in deadlock over the vote.)

I definitely get the war-leader issue. Although it's not explicitly mentioned in game, Anora doesn't seem to be a war-leader (and Loghain is), and this was probably much of the reason for the regency. The same reason is almost certainly why the Landsmeet (plausibly) cares what a Warden might think. That said, Alistair isn't really a war leader. He's been following the PC around the whole time. He is a warrior, true. But not really a war leader in the same way that the PC (or Loghain, or TBH, even Cauthrien) is. He's a great meat shield, but even if you piss him off royally, he still follows you around. In fact, the only time he'll disobey you is if you let Loghain live. Otherwise, he does what you tell him to, even if it involves the death of everyone in Redcliffe village (other than Teagan), killing Connor, killing Isolde, etc.

Not a bad guy, but hardly a "leader" either. (Which Alistair is self aware enough to admit.)

Beyond that, the only "taints" we're given about Loghain are those that you uncover at Howe's place/that Anora gives you. If you bring up absolutely nothing at the Landsmeet (other than the Blight), you lose the argument. I'm not sure how "tainted" Anora really is by this association (or rather would be, if she chose to cover it all up). Admittedly everything might come out later and cause her huge problems, but as of the Landsmeet, it has not.

Anora mentions (repeatedly) that her lack of noble blood is an obstacle. It's why she's OK being married to Alistair or m!Cousland (at least according to her). Either of them (in her mind) legitimizes her claim to the throne. Admittedly, she may be crazy and not know much about Fereldan politics (although, again, most evidence in the game I think supports that she's a reasonable politician who knows what she's talking about). Alternately, the reason she gets any support at all (at least according to Eamon, herself, Loghain) is that she has ruled the country well. It's not so much that anyone can become Queen - it's that the daughter of the Hero of Ferelden who's been doing a good job for the last five years is allowed to stay Queen. At least if no one with a closer tie to the king shows up.

Admittedly, I don't think that noble blood is everything in Ferelden. With the Warden's support (provided that you don't let a hardened Alistair kill Loghain), Anora can stay Queen despite that she's a commoner. But that the Landsmeet is even willing to consider an outsider's claim seems like a pretty big sign that a lot of the Landsmeet really does care a lot about who the king is related to (esp. Eamon, who flat out tells you that much of his support is due to the whole "Alistair as the son of Maric" thing. Along with, I suppose, that Alistair was his foster-son, so he's more likely to be in a position of power with Alistair as King than Anora as Queen.)

I have to disagree. The fact that the Warden makes the deciding factor is a pure game mechanic and for most of the origins, it makes no freaking sense whatsoever, unless you're playing a human noble character. The same way it makes no sense that you decide the fate of the dalish or the dwarves or whoever. And Bioware does this in every game they make, Mass Effect, KoTOR and others all have the "Your PC decides the fact of everything, no matter if it makes sense or not because this is what our players like." It has no further meaning than the fact that Bioware knows what sells their games.

Alistair is a man, whose sole qualification for being king is his bloodline. This is a guy who refused to lead two grey wardens across Ferelden and making him king makes no sense whatsoever, unless you have a political stake in getting rid of the Queen and think you can control him, which is the best explination I think the bannorn (and the Warden) has for backing him. He has no training, expierence, or any of the skills necessary to run the country, without some major help from someone else. It would be like taking a fortune 500 company and handing it over to your brother's doofy best friend. It simply makes no sense if you are baising the decision on skill and merit.

The bannorn only has the Warden's opinon that he should be king, and really other than the game mechanic, I don't believe that they'd give two shits about the opinion of a warden who was a city elf, or a dalish elf or any of the other non human noble backgrounds.

Frankly, Anora hasn't demonstrated that, for all that she has been a capable administrator during peacetime.

This is completely ignoring game cannon and the evidence within the game. Even her enemies talk about how skilled of a Queen she is.

But the moment the fighting started, she took a back seat to her father and let him start a reign of terror that trampled over the rights of the banns and weakened their defenses against the darkspawn until half the country was overrun. She's not the one who has been out there actually fighting the darkspawn and gathering an army.

1) We've been round and round on this, but her father had the military. There isn't a hell of a lot she could have done. And she does move against him, when she can, despite the obvious fact that she loves him.

2)Fighting darkspawn is not the same skillset as being a good administrator and King or Queen. So why a Grey Warden would be at all qualified to choose who the next leader is of Ferelden makes no sense at all. Again, this is a typical bioware game mechanic.

Pretty much everything any character in this game does can be dismissed out of hand as "game mechanic." Why is Cailan a dolt? Because the devs made him that way. Why is Loghain a traitor? Because the devs made him that way. Why are elves shorter than humans? Because the devs made them that way. Why does the Landsmeet accept the Warden's say-so? Because the devs made the game that way.

It's ALL game mechanics. Every bit of it. It is, after all, a game.

I was under the impression that the purpose of this discussion was to give some context to those mechanics, so that these sorts of often incongruous details flowed in the greater narrative.

Clearly I was mistaken.

Perhaps someone should issue a memo on when it is and isn't okay to handwave something as being "game mechanics."

Are we doing it for the whole game, for every character and possibility? Or are we only doing it when it props up those characters we especially like?

After all, "it's game mechanics" make for dreadfully two-dimensional situations and we wouldn't want that, now would we?

Edited 2010-11-24 23:21 (UTC)

Look, I get that you're trying to provide context, but the context that you're arguing for makes no sense whatsoever. As the poster above pointed out, if they placed a premium on who was the biggest badass as the potential to be a wartime leader or who gets to choose the wartime leader, then Cauthrien would be in serious contention to be Queen.

None of what you're arguing for jives with what happened in Ferelden's past when the Bannorn chose Maric to be King. Maric got affirmed as king because of his bloodline, and Bryce defers because he's a royalist who follows the bloodline. There was no duel to decide who got to make that decision - and bloodline was the #1 factor in determining who got to rule.

And you have really not answered the question of why Alistair makes any sense as a choice to be king other than 1) his bloodline and 2) the mary sue built into the game mechanics told the bannorn so.

I'm sorry but that's not a very compelling argument, at least to me.

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