How big is a division?

[zute]

I apologize for another lame-ass question, but in the story I'm writing now this actually has relevance. It's the difference between paranoia and reasonable concern.

When you rescue Riordan he tells you that Loghain had turned away 200 Grey Wardens and two dozen divisions of cavalry.  When I looked up division sizes I got utterly enormous numbers like 10,000 for single light infantry division, in the modern army. I'm sure that must be vastly larger than in middle ages terms.

Does anyone have a feel for how many actually people that would be? 

My thanks!

Zute

Comments

[niniane]

Loghain likely does have more information than we do in some ways, less in others. Of course, some of the information that he has may point to Orlais being a bigger threat than we think it is. *shrugs*

I'd agree that after a point, it gets kind of silly when Loghain refuses to relent (esp. on the part of inviting the Grey Wardens in). That said, it's hard for me to not see the chevaliers as a very real potential threat...and it's hard for me to see Loghain taking that seriously as insanity or complete paranoia.

[elysium_fic]

it's hard for me to see Loghain taking that seriously as insanity or complete paranoia.

It becomes insanity or paranoia when he refuses to acknowledge the very real threat of the Blight so that he can keep ranting about the possibly-imaginary threat of Orlais, and when he basically starts waging a campaign of terror against his own people for that reason.

[niniane]

But this would be assuming that the threat of Orlais is imaginary, which we have no evidence of. In many ways, our evidence would point in the opposite direction.

1) Orlais took over Ferelden 30 years prior (and did a horrible job)
2) There are legions of Orlesians just outside the borders waiting to get in
3) As of RtO, we learn that Orlais is planning to marry into the royal line (probably to take control of the country. Cailan's cute and all, but I'm guessing that Celene had other plans.)

I agree that refusing to acknowledge the Blight was a really bad move on Loghain's part. BUT, that doesn't mean that the threat from Orlais wasn't real, or that Loghain was totally crazy to be concerned about it.

[klarabella]

1) The occupation lasted decades and ended thirty years ago, like many occupations in history these where dark times. Things do change, though, especially when leaders change.

2) Yes, they are just outside the borders on Cailan's request and they are waiting because they were turned back. Good thing about invading armies: You can easily stop them in their tracks by telling them to stop at the border. They just do that.

3) As of RtO, we learn that Cailan and Celen were planning a permanent alliance, this was postponed because there was this Blight problem. Celen tells Cailan that the Wardens assured her that this is a Blight and that they'll have to deal with it first. Celene is obviously not so inclined to invade rather than resorting to other means (like a political marriage).

[niniane]

1) Oh, I agree, things change. (And Loghain likely had a particularly nasty experience with the Orlesians to boot.) That said, occupations have almost never been good things for the occupied, so concern is warranted.

2) Invading armies don't always stop at borders when asked. But depending on the circumstances, there may be a lot of logic for it. If there's a natural barrier or pass with poor supply chains, the army may prefer to wait it out rather than to risk being starved/attacked from a good vantage point. We don't really know all the details about what might cause problems did they press further. Again, maybe they're just being polite and hanging out waiting just in case they're needed. Maybe they're biding their time, waiting for the Blight to do their work for them.

3) Again, Celene seems to be a competent ruler, and she's probably going to go the easy route if she wants to reclaim Ferelden. Marriage wastes a lot fewer resources than does conquest. It's a sensible solution, if Ferelden is willing to go that route (which they seem to be).

[zute]

Loghain wasn't a computer. He made decisions from his past experiences and certainly his emotions guided those decisions. His personality was such that he made a decision and stuck with it, like allying with Howe. As DG says: There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

As far as not believing it was a real Blight, the definition of one is that there's an archdemon present. No one had seen him and Loghain wasn't likely to trust Grey Wardens after what happened in The Calling. Plus they were so damn secretive about everything. Maybe if they'd discussed the fact they're all dreaming about the archdemon it would have carried some impact.

Plus, there's a more personal reason why Loghain didn't want to believe it was a true Blight. It would mean that Flemeth's prophecies were true and he didn't want to believe he had betrayed his best friend. (From DG)

[niniane]

Yeah, I agree. There was def. a lot of emotion going into the decision "don't let the Orlesians in!" I just don't know that it was totally illogical. ;)

Hmmm...I hadn't thought about the archdemon bit, but that does make a of sense if you're going "is this a real blight, or just a larger than usual grouping of darkspawn?"

[varelishawt]

Um, even Cailan doesn't think it's a real Blight, though. Duncan and the Grey Wardens know because of the archdemon appearing in their dreams, but for a man who already distrusts Wardens, with a pretty pragmatic attitude, it would be difficult to convince him. Saying, "Oh, I saw the archdemon in my dreams," wouldn't exactly help the cause. Compared to such nebulous knowledge, it isn't inconceivable for Loghain to determine Orlais is the greater threat.

[klarabella]

Cailan says, he isn't sure that this is a Blight. But even after that he says 'The Blight ends here!' So while he's not sure about it he does consider the possibility, and rightfully so.

And after Ostagar there is no nebulous knowledge. A Darkspawn horde, creatures the people believed extinct, just outnumbered the Fereldan armies. If Loghain has any doubts about what is happening all he needs to do is to send scouts and gather information.

[darkrose]

And interestingly, it's *after* Ostagar that Loghain tells Anora, "This is no true Blight".

[elysium_fic]

Yes, but Cailan was an idiot.

None of us is interested in lumping Loghain into that particular category, so at some point we need to acknowledge that his utter refusal to acknowledge the Blight was a huge oversight that he really ought to have been rectified. He was obsessed with a hypothetical threat to the point of ignoring a real threat. What else can that possibly be called, but myopic and/or paranoid?

[klarabella]

Anora for example does consider accepting help from Orlais and allows them in immediately after the Landsmeet. She asks her father about Cailan's plans to ask Orlais for help. Isn't she supposed to be the politician in the family (unlike her father)? Loghain gets extremely upset when she mentions this option.

[niniane]

Yup, Anora is quite willing to deal with the Orleians. But figure that she's never lived in Orlesian-occupied Ferelden, may believe that she can out-fox Celene if it comes down to it, and completely believes that there's a Blight going on (and seems to have some knowledge about Grey Wardens that she probably shouldn't have - I've always seen her and Cailan as sharing notes on them).

We all know, in meta "we've played the game world" that Anora is right. No doubt! (If for no other reason than Orlesian occupation > being killed by undead monsters.) Even Loghain eventually relents if you recruit him.

I just quibble at the idea that 1) the Orlesians are obviously our friend and no threat (that seems rather naieve), and that 2) Loghain is being totally insane and paranoid for not wanting them in the country (he has some pretty good reasons).

Again, to me, it's those shades of gray that keep things interesting.