peopleofthedas | How big is a division?

That's right. That's exactly how things are supposed to go and there are some hints that the writing is not plausible at that point.

If anything it could explain why Cailan didn't have to die, battle winnable or not.

If anything it could explain why Cailan didn't have to die, battle winnable or not.

But see, that's the thing. I don't get how in the scenario above, how Cailan could survive unless Loghian took his troops down into that meat grinder of a battle and got nearly everyone killed trying to save the King. Unless the King was smart enough to realize that they were all in danger of being overwhelmed and Loghain would be totally stupid to take his troops into that and sounded his own retreat out of the other side of the pass.

To me, it entirely justifies Loghain's decision to leave the field and jives with what he tells you if you talk to him later, that the choice was between getting the rest of the army killed and letting the King and the wardens die.

It seems like the guys at the bioboards seem to think that Cailan should have been able to hold that position for a long time. I would say that this is true if Cailan and the Grey Wardens had been fighting in close quarter formation like a Greek phalanx or Roman legions, with short swords and spears, heavy shields and everyone standing shoulder to shoulder and acting as one cohesive unit. But with the medieval fighting style of one on one fighting out in the open, with guys in large plate and broadswords, I don't think they could last more than an hour or two.

I understood that if Ferelden's army is worth its salt then they would have kept any kind of formation (not necessarily a phalanx), which they don't in the cutscene. In the game they immediately give up any advantage they might have had by charging the Darkspawn. Whatever the problem is it's not a matter of one hour.

I'm willing to believe that Cailan is immature and over-confident, but believe that he (obviously a fan of the Grey Wardens and a glory-hound) knows nothing at all about warfare while fighting on the frontlines?

But that's just my interpretation. I'm trying to rewrite Ostagar, so it's a very interesting topic for me. :)

I understood that if Ferelden's army is worth its salt then they would have kept any kind of formation (not necessarily a phalanx), which they don't in the cutscene. In the game they immediately give up any advantage they might have had by charging the Darkspawn. Whatever the problem is it's not a matter of one hour.

Sure. They should have kept some sort of formation. But who's the one who gives the signal to charge? Cailan. I mean, for all we know, they were supposed to stay in position but Cailan, who has already proven himself to be not the sharpest knife in the drawer, didn't think that would be glorious enough.

Plus you have to remember this isn't one giant homogeneous fighting force that's been training and fighting together for years. These are mostly a bunch of troops pulled from all over ferelden plus some grey wardens who aren't probably used to fighting darkspawn on this scale. So there's no guarantee they'd be able to work well enough together to defend that position for long.

I'm willing to believe that Cailan is immature and over-confident, but believe that he (obviously a fan of the Grey Wardens and a glory-hound) knows nothing at all about warfare while fighting on the frontlines?

See, I doubt this. For one thing, he's the King and it's very, very doubtful that he has a lot of battle experience on the front line. Also he's a fan of the Wardens, who aren't soldiers. I doubt that most of the time, the wardens fight darkspawn in a giant pitched battle on a scale like that.

Also, Cailan makes a lot of stupid decisions in the game such as not waiting for reinforcements that are coming, putting himself on the front lines when he has no clear successor and considering a marriage with Celene which would effectively hand his country over to Orlais. So I could totally believe that he's dumb enough to give the order to charge.

Ferelden could also have one of those cultures who says leaders of armies must fight in the frontlines, or he wouldn't be worth following, so we can't blame it all on Cailan being a featherbrained idiot. According to wikipedia, at least, leading from the back was a somewhat radical idea, and not in keeping with the warrior tradition. Yes, it's dumb to risk your best leaders and generals, but they wouldn't be worth following if they didn't show they had courage and valor.

But, yes, he was dumb for not waiting for reinforcements, like taking up Eamon's offer of troops.

I see what you're saying, but Ferelden doesn't seem like one of those cultures, and Cailan strikes me as a very, very shelterd man. Ferelden seems to be much more of leadership due to bloodlines where the ruling class uses that as a justification for keeping their power rather than showing skill through strength and accomplishments. This is why people like Loghain and Anora have such a hard time and are in such precarious positions I think. If it were a society baised on following people with skill, it would be a much different situation for them (especially Anora).

I see what you're saying, but Ferelden doesn't seem like one of those cultures, and Cailan strikes me as a very, very shelterd man. Ferelden seems to be much more of leadership due to bloodlines where the ruling class uses that as a justification for keeping their power rather than showing skill through strength and accomplishments.

Actually, you've got it entirely backward:

From the table-top RPG Player's Guide:

However, in Ferelden,
unlike nearly all other countries in Thedas,
members of the nobility are not considered to
be intrinsically better or afforded more rights
than any other class; they just have different
ones. It is true that nobles are generally
treated with deference, but this is often due
more to the (correct) assumption of martial
ability than social status. Nobles from other
lands frequently find Ferelden commoners to
be phenomenally insolent in comparison to the
fawning treatment that they are used to.
The primary purpose of the nobility of Ferelden
is to fight for their people against all threats—
human, darkspawn, or otherwise. While nearly
all Fereldans boast some level of martial ability,
nobles are expected to excel at warfare—it
is, literally, their “job.”

It says on the wiki that the king is actually the Teyrn of Ferelden, so this rule definitely applies to the king as well. The king is expected to fight alongside his people. That Loghain and Eamon both didn't want him to do so could likely be a statement of their assessment of Cailan's skills as a warrior, rather than an inherent mentality of "protect the king."

Since the Landsmeet is perfectly willing to keep Anora on as queen, or they accept Alistair only because the Warden who has already won them over vouches for him, or they let the Warden promote him or herself to the throne alongside Anora or Alistair once the Warden has gained their approval, I think it's pretty clear that the Landsmeet IS thinking in terms of capable leadership, rather than bloodlines.

In fact, no matter how persuasive you are, ultimately the Landsmeet only follows you if you defeat Loghain in a fight.

The argument can definitely be made that with his insistence on supporting the Theirin bloodline, Arl Eamon is veering away from this tradition, but this may also be attributed to the fact that Eamon has a blood connection to Cailan and a connection via fosterage to Alistair and therefore it's in Eamon's interest to keep the Theirin dynasty in power. Plus, there's the fact that he believes Loghain has gone mad.

The argument could also be made, though not very strongly, that Ferelden society is trending away from this, considering some of the rumors you can get from Bodhan Feddic or the innkeepers deal with Loghain and Anora's commoner roots being an issue. But on the whole, the "they're looked down on because they're commoners" facet is a bit overblown in fannon and doesn't really address Ferelden culture as its established canonically.

Edited 2010-11-24 18:37 (UTC)

But on the whole, the "they're looked down on because they're commoners" facet is a bit overblown in fannon and doesn't really address Ferelden culture as its established canonically.

I disagree that it's overblown. The only argument any NPC in the actual game makes against Anora being Queen is her bloodline. That's it. They're going to yank her job and crown away from her, even though they admit she's good at what she does, soley because of her commoner roots. To me, that's the ultimate in looking down on someone because she's a commoner. Since it comes from the actions and dialogue in the game, that's as canonnical as it gets.

The primary purpose of the nobility of Ferelden is to fight for their people against all threats—human, darkspawn, or otherwise. While nearly all Fereldans boast some level of martial ability,nobles are expected to excel at warfare—it
is, literally, their “job.”

Sure. This is probably exactly what the nobility tells itself in order to legitimize and justify their oppressive class structure and limiting opportunities for people born below their priviledged station as well as justifying their taxes and revenues on the commoners to support their fighters.

That Loghain and Eamon both didn't want him to do so could likely be a statement of their assessment of Cailan's skills as a warrior, rather than an inherent mentality of "protect the king."

That's a fair point. Cailan may have very well sucked as a fighter or had been so shelterd that he wasn't fit for the front lines. It's also possible that they're just freaked out about sucession and the chaos his death might cause (which is entirely possible due to being in a giant pitched battle, even if everything went the way it was supposed to) since no heir has been produced. Or even a combination of both.

The only argument any NPC in the actual game makes against Anora being Queen is her bloodline. That's it. They're going to yank her job and crown away from her, even though they admit she's good at what she does, soley because of her commoner roots. To me, that's the ultimate in looking down on someone because she's a commoner. Since it comes from the actions and dialogue in the game, that's as canonnical as it gets.

That's what Eamon says, but Eamon isn't the Landsmeet. Clearly the Landsmeet is still willing to follow her. Aside from Eamon and whomever you happen to be asking for rumors, who disses on Anora for being a commoner?

Sure. This is probably exactly what the nobility tells itself in order to legitimize and justify their oppressive class structure and limiting opportunities for people born below their priviledged station as well as justifying their taxes and revenues on the commoners to support their fighters.

Where exactly is this claim coming from?

That's what Eamon says, but Eamon isn't the Landsmeet. Clearly the Landsmeet is still willing to follow her. Aside from Eamon and whomever you happen to be asking for rumors, who disses on Anora for being a commoner?

Yeah the Landsmeet is willing to follow her under certain circumstances (personally I think that it's completely ridiculous that the warden is the one who makes this decision and makes no sense whatsoever and is pure game mechanics, but whatever), but they are also equally willing to toss her aside for a guy that has zero leadership expierence. The fact that they're even willing to do that at all (in the middle of such a huge crisis) to someone who by all accounts (even from her enemies) is extremely competent, speaks volumes about attitudes towards commoners.

I mean, really, if they were thinking in terms of competent leadership, they wouldn't even seriously consider Alistair at all. His only qualification for the job is his bloodline. So this is hardly a society that's built on advancing people baised on merit. The people who do manage to break out of their class and advance upwards are both lucky and very skilled.

Where exactly is this claim coming from?

It's a feudalistic medieval society where station is decided almost entirely by birth. You don't think that would be inherently oppressive? The nobility have to justify their position at the top of the food chain somehow, so they do by taking money from their people, using it to fund their fighters and claiming that it's necessary. That's how medieval societies work.

And this codex assertion is totally unrealistic:

However, in Ferelden, unlike nearly all other countries in Thedas, members of the nobility are not considered to be intrinsically better or afforded more rights than any other class; they just have different
ones.

I mean the idea that the Cousland family would somehow have no better rights than a commoner is laughable. They live in a position of extreme wealth and priviledge and resources and for the codex to assume that it makes no difference in everyday life or in the rights of a commoner is extremely unrealistic.

His only qualification for the job is his bloodline.

And the fact that the Warden, who has persuaded them with proof of Loghain's crimes, vouches for him, AND the fact that Alistair or the Warden (or the Warden's champion) has defeated Loghain in single combat, thus proving him/herself a capable fighter.

In fact, the "fighter" detail is the deciding factor. You can persuade the Landsmeet, but if you can't beat Loghain in the duel, you lose. The Landsmeet follows your recommendation on Alistair because you or Alistair have proven yourselves capable in single combat.

It's a feudalistic medieval society where station is decided almost entirely by birth.

No, it's a fantasy game loosely (very loosely) based on medieval society in atmosphere. In that society, power derives from the Freeholders and Banns, not from higher nobility. The banns hold power because the freeholders GIVE it to them. The king and teyrns hold power because the arls and banns GIVE it to them, and can take it away.

In fact, a large part of the civil war is due to the fact that Loghain is making demands of the bannorn that he has no authority to make. He names himself regent, even though the ruler of Ferelden is decided by the Landsmeet. That's a no-no. He's demanding troops and provisions the bannorn have no obligation to yield to him. In short, he's acting like a tyrant and trampling all over their traditional autonomy.

And this codex assertion is totally unrealistic:

It's not meant to be realistic. It's a fantasy game world, not reality.

In fact, the "fighter" detail is the deciding factor. You can persuade the Landsmeet, but if you can't beat Loghain in the duel, you lose. The Landsmeet follows your recommendation on Alistair because you or Alistair have proven yourselves capable in single combat.

If that's the case, then shouldn't the PC Warden, Wynne, Zev, Morrigan or the mabari be the leader of the country if they win?

I'd totally be rooting for the dog. :)

Actually it's quite funny if you try to choose the Dog as your champion.

But, again, see the part I've said several times now about the fact that they follow your RECOMMENDATION because you won the fight, not that the winner automatically becomes leader, only that it gives their recommendation the necessary amount of weight to make the Landsmeet play along.

If the Warden's recommendation was outweighed by national/racial/magical/species prejudice on the part of the Landsmeet (as would be the case with Zev/an elf trying to make himself king/Wynne or Morrigan/Dog, the Landsmeet would still overrule him/her.

So long as the Warden makes a recommendation they can live with, such as keeping Anora (a commoner but a capable queen) on the throne, the Landsmeet will follow IF AND ONLY IF the Warden has proven him/herself a capable fighter, or a leader of capable fighters, by either personally defeating Loghain or choosing a champion who can personally defeat Loghain.

In the end, it comes down to the martial prowess, not blood, not even persuasive ability. That's the world the writers created. It may not be one familiar or realistic to those who expect it to be an exact analog of historical societies, but that's how it is.

<--totally wants Dog to be the next king

<--or maybe Leliana. She's also human, right? And not a mage!

If this made the least amount of sense, why would anyone let Alistair be king? I mean, going against him we have:

1) No experience running a country
2) So not a natural leader that immediately gives all responsibility in dealing with the Blight to the junior warden (this gets especially lulzy at -100% approval)
3) Ex-templar (so possibly biased due to Chantry ties)
4) Grey Warden (so likely a biased leader due to that)

Going for him we have:

1) Son of Maric
2) Kind of cute
3) ?

Unless there's a lot more going for Alistair than I would have thought, it would appear that his main claim to becoming king is hereditary. So I'm inclined to go with Pris on this one. I mean, sure, Ferelden is a lot more egalitarian than most societies. But...equal? Oh, come on...even Loghain gives his whole thing about the only way you can make it big in the country is through blood...either that which you are born with, or that you are willing to shed for the country.

Going for him we have:

1) Son of Maric
2) Kind of cute
3) Defeats Loghain in personal combat and/or is vouched for by someone capable of defeating Loghain in personal combat.

In the end, that's the deciding factor.

Well...not necessarily. Usually I have either my Warden or Morrigan defeat him. I suppose the vouching part, but really?

If the criteria for running the country is being the #1 best fighter, we ought to be celebrating Cauthrien as queen. (Unless, of course, your Warden does the weird thing that one guy did and kills her singlehandedly with his arcane mage or whatever.)

...alternately, this theory would also support the arch-demon's claim to be King of Ferelden.

It's not that hard to kill Cauthrien. Lots of players do it.

And the Warden defeats the archdemon, so the Warden is still the biggest badass.

The odds really aren't that fair. There are four of you vs. one of her. I mean, she has the guards, but it's not really a one on one dual as they're mostly trash. (Unless, of course, you game the system and bring just the warden. Then, I suppose that Cauthrien has the advantage with her trash mobs.)

Regardless, that she's not even a Bann makes me think that there may be more to Fereldan politics than who can kill who in solo combat. Because she's generally seen as just a knight while Anora is Queen, and Loghain is Regent...and she's generally considered harder to kill than Loghain. (And you never even fight Anora. I wonder if she's just that awesome?)

And the Warden does beat the arch demon, but again with several armies, a full party, etc. I'm fairly sure that if it was arch-demon vs. lone warden that the warden would lose, no matter how awesome he or she is. Then again, probably someone has managed to do this...but it's not really a normal game scenario to deliberately storm Fort Drakon alone, then to refuse to use the army summoner.

I think that it really points to that Fereldan politics are not determined entirely by who kills who in a dual. I mean, they are in the game, but that's mostly game mechanics + either the Landsmeet voted for you and Loghain is just being a dick, or alternately, the Landsmeet voted against you, but got freaked out when you just started slaughtering everyone and figured "what the heck, he's the son of Maric, and we really don't want to have to clean up any more bloodstains..."

The odds really aren't that fair. There are four of you vs. one of her. I mean, she has the guards, but it's not really a one on one dual as they're mostly trash. (Unless, of course, you game the system and bring just the warden. Then, I suppose that Cauthrien has the advantage with her trash mobs.)

Uh, really?

Because I play on Easy Mode. And I've managed to beat Cauthrien exactly once in six or seven tries--with my mage--and I was the only one in my party left standing. AFAIC, she's the hardest fight in the game, hands down.

I'm impressed. I think that I tried to solo-kill Cauthrien once,and just figured screw it afterwards. I'm playing for fun and storyline, not a super challenge. ;) Obviously none of my Wardens should be allowed to decide the shoes they put on in the morning. :P

But, yeah, there are super crazy people out there who have shown that you can solo Cauthrien, with one player, on Nightmare. I don't know *where* they find the patience, but they've done it...

My point, though, is that if the ruler of the Ferelden is determined solely by their ability to kill people in solo combat, that poor Cauthrien has obviously missed the memo. As you pointed out, she's hard to kill! So if ability to kill things = #1 trait for a ruler of Ferelden (which I think is the point that Elysium is making?), that Cauthrien should be Queen. Not that I think she should be. I disagree with the entire premise, which is why I brought up some rather silly examples.

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