Discussion: playing a Templar supporter

[lokapala]

I've just finished my second playthrough of DA2, and this time, same as the first, I played a Mage supporter. This irks the completionist in me, but my attempts at inventing a Templar-supporting Hawke all end in failure: I don't want to play a blatant hypocrite or a completely egoistical and evil character, and I can't invent enough rationalizations for the pro-Templar path to satisfy me.

So, if anyone is interested in the topic, please, please lend me your brains!

The first obvious thing to get out of the way is creating a non-mage!Hawke. The second - the question of Bethany - is easy as well, since she tells you herself she wants to be 'normal' and thinks that the Circle might've been a good thing.

Then there's the list of required decisions for the Mage Hunter or Arcane Defender achievements:

- Tell Feynriel to go to the Circle of Magi.

He's an unstable teenager already under demon attack, whose attempts at helping himself got him into slavers' hands. And what Hawke seen of Marethari (and her relationship with Merrill, whom she allowed to learn and use blood magic) do not spell 'good magical mentor' to a person who think the Circle system is the right way to deal with magic and its problems.

- When confronting Grace, turn her and the other mages over to the Circle.

Escaped blood mages willing to kill, sending them to the Circle is actually being nice.

- Recommend that Keran be discharged from his duties.

If you didn't bring Merrill or Anders with you, there's no way to know whether he's possessed, and even if Merrill or Anders 'verified' him, why would you trust the word of a blood mage/abomination?

- Make Feynriel tranquil.

Hypothetical Hawke isn't a mage and can easily disturb Feynriel by bluntly stating the obvious (THEY'RE DEMONS PREYING ON YOU, YOU IDIOT), and anyway making him tranquil is the lesser evil ('practically unstoppable abomination' and all that).

- Side with Meredith at the end of Act 2.

Military commander should take command of a military operation. Also, the only fighters who are there are templars, and they are already under her authority, no reason for you to attempt to undermine it.

- Make Emile de Launcet return to the Circle.

Even Anders comments on Emile's utter unpreparedness to live outside the Circle. It's for his own good, and this Hawke thinks the Circle is the right thing anyway.

- Agree with Samson regarding the mages.

Idiot blood mages are bad, and Kirkwall does seem to be crawling with those.

There's also the issue of handing Ketojan over to the Qunari, and, well, even a mage supporter can easily choose to do so on the grounds that it's an internal Qunari affair, there's no way of knowing what Ketojan himself wants and it's a bad idea to mess with the unhappy militant giants sitting in your city.

So far, so good. BUT. There are two major things I cannot find a satisfying justification for. Funnily enough, the bigger issue, that of siding with Meredith at the very end, seems easier than the question of your companions. One can decide that Hawke doesn't know what the Right of Annulment entails (i.e. the complete wipe out of every mage including children and elders) and thinks they're going to put down the rabble-rousers in the Circle, and/or just trust that Meredith has a templar's six sense for evil mages that need to be stopped.

But WHY, WHY is our pro-templar Hawke is running around with two apostates, and to add insult to injury, they are a blood mage and an abomination? I can even explain away helping Anders in the Tranquility quest - Hawke really, really needs those maps and is still growing out of the familial 'run from the templars for your sister's/father's good' mindset. And you can refuse their quests in Acts 2 and 3, and you can tell them they're wrong, but you cannot hand them over to the Circle and... that's just stupidly unexplainable and unjustifiable for a Hawke that genuinely thinks that the Circle system is the right idea for everyone's good.

Comments

[darkrose]

The only way I could justify siding with Meredith at the end is if you're playing a non-mage-Hawke and Bethany died in the Deep Roads. Even then, you still have the issue that even Sebastian sees: how is annulling the Circle justified when the person who just blew up the Chantry wasn't in the Circle in the first place?

Not turning Merrill in could be rationalized by hoping you can convince her she's wrong. Anders is a bit trickier, although you could argue that locking him up means that a lot of people in Darktown would end up dying without his services. If you keep him from killing Ella, then on balance, he's helped more people than he's hurt, at least, up until the endgame.

(Ella is one of the big reasons I can't side with the templars, because I just can't send her back to the Circle. Her story indicates that either Meredith is letting her templars do whatever they want, or she's not paying enough attention.)

[lokapala]

It doesn't really seem you can convince Merrill of anything, even her Keeper can't :)

The whole problem with both Anders and Merrill is that while yes, they're useful and are doing mostly good things (until the very end), but they're a fucking blood mage and an abomination. You turn in mages that are far less dangerous or suspicious...

And yes, the existence of ser Alrik (and ser Karras) does make it difficult to believe Meredith knows what she's doing.

[sakuratea]

I think that pro-Templar character might feel that they owe each of the two mages enough not to turn them in. You owe Anders for the maps which lead to your social ascendancy, and caring for Merrill was part of the bargain with Flemeth you made to save your family. A pro-Templar Hawke might try to convince each of them to turn themselves in, and not doing so might grate on their conscience. Still, I think that Hawke might perhaps comfort themselves in thinking that they could watch over the apostates... It doesn't seem impossible, Aveline believes in the law but lets some things slide.

With Feynriel, my mage on my first playthrough ended up making those pro-Templar decisions because I thought he was being unrealistic and the Dalish would never take him (being human and all) and that he'd just end up in more trouble. At least the circle might be able to do something about the demons. Then he seemed to be whiny and want to die in the fade.

I can't play a pro-Templar character either. You have to really ignore the systematic abuses in the Chantry as a whole to do so. I always think I should try to play a devout Andrastian Hawke (who I think could credibly believe in the system) but I can't do it.

[lokapala]

But caring for Merrill isn't really part of the bargain, only letting her come to Kirkwall with you, and even that is a personal request on Marethari's part. Flemeth asked you to take the amulet and complete the required ritual.

Hm, maybe a warrior with templar spec (although how could Hawke learn templar skills?) could believe they can watch over both apostates... Playing a devout Andrastian isn't difficult, hell, ANDERS is a devout Andrastian. Playing someone who is consistent in their belief in the system AND doesn't get disillusioned over the course of the game, on the other hand... Argh.

[sakuratea]

I'm not sure I agree. I think you could take it that way, but I think it's also reasonable to say you need the Keeper for Flemeth's task and the Keeper asks you to take Merrill with you as her price. Turning her into the Templars in Kirkwall seems like bad faith, to me.

I think the truth is that to support the Templar position, you have to believe that mages are so dangerous that they have less rights that non-mages. That argument is prejudiced, but I can understand how a culture in fear of being ruled by blood mages again could come to it. In the context of the vast majority of people on Thedas, belief that mages are cursed is simply a normal, rational belief. There are abuses on the part of both Templars and free mages (like every free mage except you). Are you a dick for not transcending the strongly held prejudice of your culture when things that buoy it keep happening?

[lokapala]

Re: Merrill - that's a good argument, thanks :)

The problem with being as prejudiced as the majority of people in Thedas (outside of Tevinter & Rivain, presumably) is that you're not part of said majority - you have a very specific background prejudicing you in favor of the mages. Your evidently beloved father was a mage, your sweet little sister is a mage and you might be one yourself. I can see Hawke thinking that the system isn't that bad of an idea, what with Bethany's expressed preferences and with Malcolm having friends among templars and his escape from the Circle looking more like elopement with Leandra than running from templars. But seeing all mages as subhuman or too dangerous to be allowed freedom? Ack. The amount of self-hate and/or hate and disgust against your own family needed for that... Well, I can imagine it (not that I particularly want to play such a character), but I don't think the in-game interactions with your family support such an interpretation.

[sakuratea]

Many mages believe it somewhat themselves, think of Wynne from DAO. I always imagined my mages in DAO were pretty Aequitarian. Mages are in constant danger and need protection is sort of the flip side of that argument that sounds less dehumanizing. If Bethany is dead or a warden, you might have less sympathy for mages as the years run on, as well... Especially after one kills your mother. It's a very paternalistic and patronizing attitude, but I don't think it wouldn't be that odd to have.

[lokapala]

True. I'll think about the 'Mages need protection' angle, thanks. Now to find a way to agree with the idiocy of calling the Right because of Anders' shenanigans...

[scarylady]

I played a mage who sided with the Templars on the twin grounds of egotism and logic.

First and foremost, he firmly believed that any mage less disciplined that himself (ie. everyone) belonged in the circle for the public safety.

Secondly, the argument between Orsino and Meredith - when Hawke has the opportunity to intervene - isn't about the annulment of the circle, it's simply about whether she has the right to search the Circle from top to bottom. That's a easy one: she does.

Regarding companions that you don't have the opportunity to refuse to bring into your little gang: the way I see it, if you don't summon them, don't speak to them, then you didn't take them. So they're apostates who live in the city? *shrug* It's nothing to do with you.

[lokapala]

But, but Merrill and Anders obviously were less disciplined! They should be in the circle for everyone's safety, including themselves! :D

The argument does start with the right to search the tower, but after Anders' jenga play Meredith declares the Right and Orsino directly appeals to you for help on the grounds that, well, it's stupid (and Sebastian is there with his sudden voice of reason, too). Hawke then can claim that the people will riot and kill the mages themselves... I can't see it, and even IF that was somehow a possibility, the templars should be protecting the innocent mages, not annuling them. Also, the people would probably appeased with a nicely staged execution.

[sakuratea]

Also, you can get mage hunter without doing all of those. In the playthrough I got it, I sided against Grace and Feynriel but with Keran, made Feynriel tranquil, and sided with Meredith at the end of act two, and told Emile to go back to the Circle.

[lokapala]

It's really the achievement I want, it's to side with the templars in the end without playing an idiot or a dick :D

typing fail

[lokapala]

It's *NOT really the achievement that I want))