Random DA things

[zillah975]

I love this game like burning. After I'd been playing on the PS3 for several months, I bought a shiny new laptop for the sole purpose of having it for the PC and I'm now playing it on BOTH the PC and PS3, because it's JUST THAT AWESOME. *draws hearts* I have four working laptops now, because of the three I had before, none would run DA.

The following rantishness is from looking at the game from the POV of a character within it, not from the POV of a player who understands why things have to go a certain way in order to position the player character to proceed down a certain path and become the big hero.



There. Now.

Okay, have you noticed that Duncan is a manipulative, evil bastard? I was crushing on him so hard at first, but my human wardens and my newest City Elf warden just want to punch him in the face. Alistair may be all starry-eyed over him, but oh my god.

My human wardens. First, while her father lies dying at their feet, Duncan promises to get her and her mother to safety only if her father agrees that she'll become a Grey Warden. She doesn't get a say in this, and her DYING FATHER is being blackmailed into it on the lives of his wife and child!

That's a pretty big strike against poor old Duncan.

Second, it turns out that this thing that Duncan blackmailed her dying father into agreeing to will get her killed, either immediately upon joining, or within just a few decades -- when she will descend into the deep roads and fight monsters in the dark miles below ground until they kill her. RAWR.

Third, POOR SER JORY. OMFG. He's got a pregnant wife at home! but does Duncan even try to talk sense into him?! No! He's all, "oh, he pulled his sword, I HAD to kill him," but you notice that Jory looks about as threatening as a kitten up a tree until Duncan draws his sword and advances on him? Because I sure noticed that. Doesn't even once try to reason with him, or explain things to him further. No, he just tricks him into leaving his wife and child, then stabs him to death when Jory expresses some dismay at Daveth's gruesome and untimely death!

Also, creepiest group ever, the way Duncan, Alistair, Jory, and your Warden just back slowly away while Daveth chokes to death. Jeez, guys, maybe it wasn't even the blood, maybe he just swallowed wrong! Somebody could at least TRY to help him!

The human origin is definitely the worst (for Duncan's character, I mean) of the ways I've played through so far. But the City Elf is also kind of grim, as I realized when I played through the opening on the "I am a selfish asshole" setting and discovered that if things go a certain way, your pal gets carted off to prison to be executed and Duncan's all, "hey, I only need one warden. Too bad for him."




I feel sort of guilty for still crushing on Duncan, even knowing what a bastard he is.

Are there any "Duncan is a manipulative evil bastard" fics out there for a girl who both crushes on him and wants to punch him in the face?

Comments

[zillah975]

See, I totally get why he does it, but believing that the ends justify the means doesn't actually make the means any less manipulative or horrible.

Also, I don't get why he has to kill Jory. If it's because Jory's a coward, well, I'm not sold on the idea of Jory as a coward. There's a difference between cowardly and cautious, and at least for the dialog options I chose, he's cautious, not cowardly. He doesn't abandon the party, he doesn't shy away from battle when they find it, I really think he's just a thoughtful, cautious soldier who doesn't want to die needlessly.

After all, he has a pregnant wife to go home to. I'd be cautious too.

And he balks at drinking darkspawn blood not because it's icky, but because it apparently has a high chance of killing him. Again, Jory doesn't want to die needlessly, and that looks pretty needless, I must say. Especially since he has all of maybe five minutes to process this turn of events.

Mileage may vary, especially with different dialog options, but I really want the "Jory and Daveth live" AU. Maybe the "Jory and Daveth and Duncan all live" AU. That would be fun to write. I may have to consider this more thoroughly.

[aroihkin]

This. No one said Duncan doesn't have reasons for doing what he did in each Origin story, but that doesn't mean he's not an ass for doing it.

My characters largely didn't like him. ICA=ICC. In Character Actions = In Character Consequences. (In this case, not much besides a sour opinion from various recruits.)

By the time they reach Ostagar, most of them have gone from "OMG WTF you're an ass" to cold indifference. His death sucks because suddenly it's all on them, not because they're going to miss him as a friend or something like Alistair does.

I personally like the character of Duncan just fine. I don't adore him, but I like him alright. Mileage varies with the people I write, though.

[zillah975]

I love Duncan as a character, and actually love him more since noticing how manipulative he is. It enriches his characterization for me and opens up soooo many possibilities for stories. :)

As a person, though...well, let's just say I wouldn't turn my back on him....

[onemorealtmer]

ICA=ICC, yes...which makes Duncan one of the most variable NPCs for me. Taniva would practically have danced on his corpse if the timing had been right, and my Cousland was none too pleased with him either; OTOH Philomene took right to him as Substitute Daddy, and my Brosca virtually freaking worships him. It all depends on whose eyes I'm seeing him through.

[(Anonymous)]

Isn't... that what I just said? Or are you agreeing? XD

He's very interesting for how little we see of him. He's just not my cup of tea as far as plot characters go. I just said I like him... even if I don't adore him. :P

He's rather nice to the dwarves, especially the dusters.

[onemorealtmer]

The "yes" was meant to imply agreement. XD

[prisoner_24601]

I always figured the best reason for killing Jory is the one that's given by Daveth when the complaints start about why they weren't warned about how they could die during the Joining. Because if people knew the cost and risk of becoming one, no one would become a Grey Warden. In that instance, then it makes sense to kill Jory, because Duncan really can't let him leave if he's going to go around telling people and scaring away potential future recruits - especially considering that a blight is about to begin. And when you start weighing the greater good of Ferelden and fighting the blight against one man's life... well it's a horrible decision to have to make.

I think I have seen at least one story where Daveth lives. I can't remember the name of it though or where I saw it. It's an interesting idea though.

[zillah975]

See, and that makes sense. I just wish they had included some attempt on Duncan's part to talk with Jory instead of just killing him. Or given the Warden a dialog option there, to talk with Jory, or with Jory and Duncan both. That would be awesome. I mean, I guess that's what fanfic is for, just, it'd be nice to have it in the game. It'd make me feel better about Duncan and my Warden both -- because she's just as culpable, in my mind. She doesn't do anything to help either Daveth or Jory, and that kind of messes with my mental characterization of my Warden.

And honestly, Duncan's line about "it gave me no pleasure" rings kind of hollow given how quick he was to do it. Maybe he didn't enjoy it, but he sure didn't try to avoid it. As storytellers, they failed to convince me it was necessary at that point -- I needed more in order to feel that Duncan's action was justified.

[prisoner_24601]

I think you're right that there could have been more story build up there, especially something that gives your warden the choice to voice an objection or something. It really is sort of the game railroading your character down a liner path. And there probably should have been a few more lines of dialogue along the lines of Duncan trying to reason with this guy - if for no other reason, that this guy is a recruit and therefore a potential resource, so you'd think the last option Duncan would want to take is needlessly killing someone who could be fighting in the upcoming battle. But then again, it could be argued that the battle is just hours away and they probably don't have the time for this, I guess. And Duncan, well, he's a guy who has been making hard choices like this for a long time and maybe that makes him more jaded and quick to act than he should be.

I do like Jory, actually. I get why he balks and freaks out (honestly, I think I'd flip shit myself in that circumstance). It's not a noble, heroic response, but a very realistic, human and ultimately sympathetic one. He's just a guy who wants to do right by his family and has totally gotten in over his head. So what happens when the understandable needs of one guy clashes with what needs to be done for the greater good is pretty tragic, I think.

[niniane]

Yeah. I didn't get the instantly kill him, rather than go "I'm sorry, there are no other choices, Jory..."

But, yeah, I totally love that someone does freak out. As at that point, I would. Especially if I had a wife and kids who I thought needed me.

[valiasedai]

For me, Jory's biggest "Guh, I'm so glad you died" is his naivety. He thinks he's going to be some big hero, killing the bad guy and saving the day. As things get more and more real, he gets less and less inclined. He signed up and doesn't want to deal with the consequences :/

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5788461/1/Thieves_Like_Us

AU with everyone living. I was always sad Daveth didn't live - he seemed morally questionable in terms of theiving, but in the end felt the sacrifice made by Wardens was necessary.

[zillah975]

Eeee, thank you for the link! I'll check it out when I'm not on the work computer. :)

And as for naivety, I do think it's understandable. Yes, he's very gung-ho about joining the Wardens and stopping the blight, but how many soldiers join up with similar grand ideas? We don't kill most of them before giving them a chance to adjust their expectations, but that's exactly what happens to Jory. He joins, he's excited, and then in the space of a few hours he gets sent into darkspawn-infested woods with only three strangers to back him up and then has to drink a brew that just killed one of those strangers horribly. If he dies, what happens to his wife and unborn child? And no one even tries to talk with him about this before Duncan is stabbing him to death.

Gah. I like Jory more and more the more I think about it.

[scarylady]

To me, Duncan's greatest failure with Jory isn't killing him, it's recruiting him in the first place. He won a tournament... so what? It has nothing to do with being a Warden. He's far too starry-eyed, his morale is awful, and he has a family as well. Duncan screwed up badly there.

[zillah975]

Huh. Maybe that's why Duncan was so quick to kill him -- if Jory had survived but had made a crappy Grey Warden, Duncan's error in recruiting him would have been on display. Hmmm.

[amhran_comhrac]

I love Daveth. One of these days when I'm not working on two ongoing fics I want to do a surviving!Daveth fic.
And I get the feeling "morally questionable" is actually nicer than what most Wardens are called. I mean, the PC may be the murderer of a noble (who deserved it, but tell that to the racist society), a murderer of a sibling, someone who slaughtered an entire gang, most of whom were their former friends and associates, or someone that released a maleficar on the populace.

Compared to these a bit of pickpocketing seems small time.

[valiasedai]

Oh definitely. First time through the game (as a mage who didn't help Jowan >.>) I was more than a little "Way to go. You recruited a thief! sarcasm>" As you get into the game, things get much more grey in terms or morals, and downright vicious sometimes. The Warden (before or after the joining) is so malleable in terms of morals, actions and what they're willing to bend or break that looking down on a pickpocket is a bit silly in retrospect.

[niniane]

One of the things that it is really interesting to me about DA:O is how about 50% of the time, they go "yay, the ends justify the means", then the last 50% of the time, it's "Oh, noes! You're an Machievellian villain!"

Examples of good pragmatism:

1) Duncan = yes, Jory, it sucks, but what must be done must be done! Grey Wardens take all help in defeating the Blight!
2) Bhelyn is a total bastard, but a reformer, keep him on the throne
3) Anora is a self described ruthless bitch, and willing to turn on her own father, but is a great leader, keep her on the throne (or even better, marry her yourself or force Alistair to marry her)
4) Loghain has been working against you this whole time, but still might be useful. Spare him, and make him take the arch demon.

Examples of bad pragmatism:

1) The mages might be infected with demons, kill them!
2) Connor might stay infected with the demon no matter what you do, kill him!
3) Branka wants a golem army so that Orzammar doesn't keep losing people left and right to darkspawn. Save her (and the golems)
4) Loghain is stuck with a really nasty position of needing to deal with a civil war/Blight/possible (in his mind anyway) invasion by Orlais, so does some evil things. But you must remove him from power, even if your character doesn't want to.
5) OMG, the guilt you get if you choose to slaughter the city elves to become more powerful...(even though if that was the deciding bit of power between stopping the Blight and not stopping the Blight, you'd be a fool not to take it)

I really feel that the game is trying to manipulate you into seeing some Machievellian choices as ruthless and evil, and some as pragmatic and good, despite that there are really pros and cons to either if you detach from the point of view the game is trying to sway you towards.

[zillah975]

about 50% of the time, they go "yay, the ends justify the means", then the last 50% of the time, it's "Oh, noes! You're an Machievellian villain!"

*snerk* You're right! I hadn't thought about it, but now I'm going to be paying attention.

[niniane]

Yeah, I'm driven crazy by this. Like, when I try to play a lawful good character, I want them to be all "no! Not Jory! I hate you Duncan!" But then, when I want to play a really ruthless sort, I'm all "but...but...why do you keep making me feel guilty about the golems? I *need* the golems!!!"

[prisoner_24601]

Yeah I agree. I mean, the game itself is really inconsistent and passes judgment on some of these decisions and tries to paint some of the pragmatic stuff as good and others as evil, instead of letting the players sort of go along and make their own judgments.

I think Mass Effect is far, far better at this (although not nearly flawless) with the Renegade/Paragon system. You get the feeling in that game that most of the time, the writers just set up the choice and let the players interpret it how they want, and there's a lot less of the good vs. evil vibe and more of an idealistic vs.pragmatic vibe, which I think works a lot better and hope to see more of in Dragon Age 2.

[niniane]

Yeah, it really kind of bothered me that some of the "good" choices you make in DA:O seem to involve the game almost screaming "stop it, idiot! You are ruining the world with your idealism!" at you, while certain "bad" choices seem to have the game going "OMG, you mass murderer! How could you?"

Then again, DA:O I think is overly influenced by what I'd call the "Alistair POV". In general, it seems as though, if Alistair approves, it's the "good" choice, and vice-versa. (The main differences being among the elves and magi, both of whom the game guilts you for slaughtering, but neither of whom does Alistair seem to care much about. I still crack up that using blood mage to slaughter the city elves only nets -5 approval from Alistair if you use persuade. It's like, "Hey, Alistair, I just killed a bunch of defenseless people. But I told you that Grey Wardens do all sorts of nasty stuff and gave you a toy, so we're cool, right?")

And, yeah, I totally agree as well that Mass Effect does a better job. Not a perfect one, but I do feel that it's more cynical vs. idealistic than good vs. evil.

[jannifer]

It seems to me that this moral ambiguity is in keeping with the theme that "Wardens do what has to be done. Stop the blight by any means necessary." Allowing the player to make "good" choices and "evil" choices without more repercussions than the gain or loss of approval from one's companions means that the player can play her/his PC in the way that seems best for that particular character. Doing away with an alignment system actually frees up more role-playing options, in my mind. For example, your PC might kill Connor because abominations scare her spitless or because he isn't willing to allow an abominations free reign over the village while he goes to the Tower. Your PC is equally free to avoid killing Connor because he's a child or because you believe there should be another way to deal with abominations in general. Here, you could choose the "good" option and save both Connor and Isolde while later choosing an "evil" option in dealing with the conflict between the werewolves and the Dalish. Perhaps you kill the werewolves because they're too dangerous to keep living and spreading their curse, or perhaps you lead the werewolves in a slaughter of the Dalish because Zathrian, the slimy bastard, tried to manipulate you into doing his dirty work for him.

Of course, some of the decisions you must make are really quite difficult, especially if you're playing through for the first time or deliberately trying not to metagame. I find this difficulty very appealing as it's much like what happens in life in that it isn't always easy to see the "right" course of action.

[klarabella]

I can agree completely.

Duncan is manipulative and does terrible things. My character is doing pretty much the same thing during the game, kill people, manipulate people. My characters were angry with him, it's a personal thing for them, but they never do past Ostagar. It's inappropriate to hate a dead man for something that you might come to understand.

You are right, Jory is cautious, not necessarily a coward. Thinking about it, I like him better than Daveth who is brave but seems ... not the sharpest sword on the rack.

[darkrose]

I think Jory's a total coward. He's all, "Oh, yay, glory fame coolness....wait, you mean I have to do gross stuff? But that's not FAIR!"

Daveth is kind of a dick, but he does understand what's at stake, which is why I feel bad for him when he dies.

[klarabella]

Hm, really?

I thought Darkspawn are supposed to be monstrous and frightening, very different from what a soldier or knight is used to.

"Their blood is poisonous, don't even touch it," say explains this one guy at Ostagar to the other soldiers. It's hardly ever mentioned again in the game. And the game does a terrible job of reconciling the Warden's heroic legend with their less heroic actions.

Jory acts like most would do when facing something they are not prepared to see. Of course, compared to Warden Sue he looks weak, but I appreciate the few glimpses of sanity and normal behaviour in DAO.

:)