peopleofthedas | OT: writers' comms, discussion & support

I think fanfiction lends itself more to community because it's not just the writing that we're enjoying together, it's the source texts. So whereas with original fiction, you may really enjoy the other group members' stories or you may not, in fanfiction we're all typically very fannish about the source text to start with, and that gives us an automatic "in" for a sense of community.

I'd definitely agree with that. I think maybe it comes from shared perspectives on things on things as well - shared tastes for certain styles and themes that are the things that *bring* you into the fandom to start with, more so than just a familiarity/affinity with certain genres. Hmmm.

I've been thinking much the same thing. A lot of what we bond over here isn't the fiction, it's the world that stands behind it. There are a million in-jokes; we all belong to the same club.

The only way I could see that happening with original fiction would be if a group of writers created a fantasy world of their own, that they could all write within, and had fun with it. Otherwise there isn't enough commonality, is there?

Having said that, if you find a community of original fictions writers who have even a fraction of the bond we've created here, then please do let me know.

Great minds. *g* I agree about the commonality of in-jokes and the shared but unjudged base that puts us all on. What strikes me, I think, is the freedom that gives people to bash ideas about and discuss research, characters, stories etc., which have such variety... yet still spring from the same roots.

And I will, if I do. I've had (occasional) contact with writers all under the same house who have this kind of familiarity - because we're all working in the same genres - but it never seems to carry over to any informal crit or discussion groups. Odd, really.

Do you think it's because they are afraid of having their ideas stolen?

I'm actually bouncing in my seat because I have a story about this I can't share, which is *really* annoying. Broadly: some places, yes, some places no. One pub I'm with whose emphasis is on kink/fetish erotica are utterly awesome. It's a cliche, but they're like a family. So supportive. Thing is, no one does much actual ideas bouncing because they all write very independently and, frankly, mostly everyone's busy. Another place has bugger all interaction between house writers except 'yay, my book has been released, aren't I wonderful?' to which two hundred-odd people are then expected to swamp the mailing list agreeing. /snark

I think, if anything, in my own experience, way too many 'professional' writers have a bug up their arses about 'looking' professional, so they're very guarded over the way they interact with anyone who isn't a sycophantic fan. Which is frankly silly, imho.

Another thing that adds to the community feel is the fact that we're not in some sort of competition. Professional writers earn money with their writing, so their perspective on other writers is different. Using an idea another fanfic writer came up with in your own fic isn't as big a deal as when a pro-writer does the same to another pro-writer. Sure, a flame-war might happen, but not an expensive law-suit.

I for one don't care much if others borrow ideas from my fanfic - how can I have something stolen that wasn't mine to begin with?

As for my original fiction, I do have a few projects, but I keep a close lid on them because other than my fanfic, those are very dear to my heart, and having those ideas and characters nabbed by a third party would really hurt. Same with my art - I have some old original pieces on devArt, but nowadays I only post my fanart there.

I see fanfiction and fanart as practice which I then profit from for my original stuff.

That's an interesting point. I guess I'm lucky in not really having had any issues (that I'm aware of, anyway) with filching of my original fic, though I know a few people who have, and who managed to deal with it efficiently 'behind the scenes' so to speak. Never having been burned, maybe I'm too complacent.

I'm not sure how much competition there really is in original fiction.

Yes, there are some newbs who don't realize that it's more writing quality that differentiates works than ideas, and freak out about "OMG, my idea was stolen!" But there are also fanfiction writers who do the same thing. (I have heard so much "OMG, she stole my plot/she stole my idea!" in fandom, too.) And for every professional author who brags about Amazon.com rankings, there's a fanfiction writer who brags about reviews/hit counts.

So while there are definitely financial incentives for being a good original fiction writer (although they're fairly low, really. $0.05/word is...just not that much for a 2,000 word story that took months to write and polish), I wouldn't say that the competition is necessarily intense - nor that the world of fanfiction is devoid the same kind of rivalries.

Hahaa... I actually saw submission guidelines somewhere the other day stating 'we do not want to know about your Amazon.com rankings'. *grin*

I'd agree it's a personality thing - there will always be drama queens everywhere - and I emphatically agree about the financial incentives. It's possible to make a living, but it isn't a good career plan.

I can believe that. It strikes me as both rather obnoxious and quite unprofessional to be like "OMG, I'm ranked X in Y!"

There will be drama queens everywhere. You can read pro-writer blogs to get an idea for what twits some are. (And, yes, I've seen a number of fanfiction writers freak out over people stealing their ideas. Carissa Claire stands out in my mind, but there are a large number of them.)

And the financial incentives are...rather low. I think that I've made like...$300 from writing. Which is about the cost of postage and the money I gave the agent I (briefly) had to copy things. Admittedly, I didn't publish that often (or in anything particularly prestigious). But...even if I was able to publish a story a month in something "big", that adds up to like...$2,400/year. (And novels would have advances that were similar, since I'm basically unknown.)

I think it's fair to say that this is not going to pay my bills any time soon. (And it's a lot of writing!) So it strikes me as kind of crazy to get bent out of shape over someone "stealing" your ideas or your story.

It would be mean to quote it (plus I can't find the link - d'oh) but I'm reminded of an author who recently got her panties bunched over a bad review and spammed the reviewer's blog with umpteen nice things people had said about her book on Amazon. I think she eventually realised what an idiot she looked, and slunk away. Ouch, though.

Agreed on the costs vs. return. I rarely submit anywhere that doesn't do digital these days, simply because of postage (esp. international). And the actual amounts? I got a $300 advance for a novel last month, admitting accepted as a reprint. Won't know until next year how that actually balances to royalties with that particular press, but... yes. Not exactly high rollin'.

Hah hah hah. I want to see the quote (even if it would be mean). Authors can be such delightfully petty people.

Digital is definitely the way to go, although it does limit your market somewhat. But, yeah, even if it's digital, by then time you calculate the time spent writing + editing + submitting against the (typically fairly paltry) returns, you realize that your "business" is earning like...less than you'd make working minimum wage.

Even a lot of best sellers aren't exactly living the high life. Unless you're a Rowling or King or another mega-blockbuster, it's probably best to just be like "eh, it's a hobby. If it happens, it happens. But whatever." ;)

Found it! I feel sorry for this woman in a way. Not as sorry as I'd feel if she hadn't made such a prat of herself, but... yes. This is what comes up as #1 result on Google when you type in 'author makes idiot of herself on review blog'. Ouch... read the idiocy here

Have to agree about digital, btw. I find, sticking mainly to niche genres like GLBT romance and erotica, there's a dedicated market there, but that in itself is confining. Rock and a... well, you know. So to speak(!)

I feel...marginally sorry. But not really. I mean, honestly, the sentences the reviewer quoted were pretty bad, he called her on them (which is what a reviewer is supposed to do), and she freaked out. Just...honestly, she should know better.

I think that the are advantages to digital, but there will always be a place for mainstream fiction that's been well edited. I'm not sure that it will always be print, but it's hard for me to see no one using publishing houses ever again.

Oh, no... print is waaaay from dead, and I don't believe ebooks will ever replace it, despite all the hype. That said, a lot of small pubs are seeing print sales decline while ebook sales increase. Interesting to see how it develops, I think, and whether it turns out to be a bubble or a long term thing.

Oh, do you remember when this woman sued (or tried to) J.K. Rowling, claiming that Rowling had stolen the Muggles from her? These things can get ugly fast. As I wrote, flame-wars happen among fanfic-writers, but they are largely without consequences, legal or financial.

I used to be a member of a few comms for original writing (passively) - and the little childish wars beat everything I've ever seen, especially when it came to "why was this person's short-story in this anthology and not mine? Mine was way better..."

I learned to stay away from that kind of thing. Also, people on these comms aren't as supportive and helpful - it is very hard to find someone to beta your stuff, like, when you're writing in a foreign language. The so called "established writers" also tend to be very patronizing towards newcomers, no matter if they're good or not. There are exceptions, of course.

Ah, I remember that! Silly thing. I like that quote about stealing from one source being plagiarism, while stealing from many is 'research'. *grin*

That said, with an author who is as wildly as successful as Rowling, it was bound to happen. *shrugs* In general, you don't see that kind of things among your standard, "I make $10,000 a year" writers, as there's just not the rationale. Authors who whine about how their "story might be stolen" really are pretty out of the loop...

There are some nasty writing comms out there. But there are also ones that pat you on the back and tell you how great you are. (And a very few that are in between.) It just depends on the comm, just as you get fandom places like this that are cuddly, and fandoms that delight in wank and flame wars.

I'm extremely lucky in that I have a local critique group made up of folks who have graduated from the same workshop I have. We're at different stages at our careers, but all of us have a writing career of some sort. The common bond there is that we've all done this crazy, exhausting workshop. I get the impression that's really rare, though.

I think the difference in fandom really is sharing the sources, though. Especially something like DA lore that can be interpreted millions of different ways. We bond over that, and the work that comes out of that.

Certainly, in my experience, it's rare! Lucky thing. ;)

Definitely a thread of consensus coming out about common ground as a prerequisite, which I think is interesting. Perhaps that's why so many crit circles, online or IRL, lack that openness and freedom and end up just being pats on the back. Maybe it's a way of thinking, rather than just specific links to shared experiences or source texts. Hmm....

I've belonged to Critters (www.critters.org) for original fiction off and on for years.

Do they have a great community? Yeah. Is it the same as fandom? Of course not, as we're not all obsessing over the same characters.

In some ways, this is great (i.e. you don't see your favorite character dragged through the mud by an author who hates him/her). In others, of course, it's a challenge. You don't have that "easy in" for understanding their worlds, OCs, etc. (It can also be cooler, as you get some really interesting OCs and worlds, but like in fanfiction, the quality of original fiction varies greatly, and...yeah, some are not so good with their characters and worlds, so it can be...kind of hard to understand what they're trying to write.)

That said, I've definitely felt a lot of love for the group. It's very supportive, people are excited when others are published, they buy each others' books, supply resources, etc. And Critters is a fairly large and anonymous kind of critique group. I'd imagine that (some) RL ones, or smaller ones on LJ are even more supportive. (Critters is a bit big for love ins and such, and the goal really is to create better writers rather than to offer love and support.)

I definitely treat original fiction differently than fanfiction. For one, my original work is *much* more polished. I've revised original stories as many as 15 times. I've revised fanfiction like...at most...5 times. In addition, I'm far more likely to delete a not so great real story as a not so great fanfiction story. If I sort of like a fic, but am not enamored of it, I'll throw it away if it's original fiction (as I don't want it to be published and later hurt my chances of publishing anything else because it sucks), while I'll often throw up sub-par fanfiction as, quite frankly, people often care more about pairings and characters than much else, so will appreciate it even if it technically sucks. (This is triply so for kmeme pieces, which are anon to boot. I've written some wretched stuff there.)

In addition, my real fiction tends to be more plot driven and less character driven. It also tends to be more unique. Incredibly derivative stories that are loved by fans often don't do very well by original fic standards, so I write with that in mind.

So, yes, they're very different worlds for me, despite that I write in both as a hobby.

Ooh, thanks for the rec. I think Critters might be one I haven't tried.

Interesting about plot/character. My plotting generally sucks, because everything I ever do is dictated by the fully three-dimensional, utterly real people who live in my brain and yell at me (and this is the part where you all back away slowly, not making eye contact...), meaning I write in a totally character-driven way that I then hack up and shovel around until I'm happy with it. I'm finding that's as true for fanfic as original, but with the added bonus of generally having someone else's plot framework to lean (lazily) on. It's a lovely rest.

Critters is a really great resource for original fiction. I think that it's the dominant sci-fi/fantasy web based critique group. (And is for good reason - not only are there a few hundred members, but some are really good - i.e. have won Hugos and Nebulas.) Of course, they can be rather harsh. (I've only had like...one beta who's been as tough as they are.) But, you know, editors can be, too.

Plot is really critical for original fiction. (And really doesn't seem to be for fanfiction, for whatever reason.) So it's good to work on that. Without a strong plot and hook, it's really, really hard to sell anything. (Character driven work rarely does well commercially...*sigh*) But, you know, plotting is a skill like anything else! You can develop it!

I seem to be the odd one out where that's concerned. Plot, plot, plot for me - something that the characters who live in my head can react with/against. Maybe it's the larp background that does it. I started by writing larp adventures and tavern nights.

The lazy aspect is having someone else's world to write in, that I don't have to construct from scratch.

There are some original fic comms run that might have what your looking for because they're mostly run by fanfic fans here on DW. I did a quick search and came up with this list. Some of those are obviously people's personal fic comms, but you might find something among the other comms.

Ooh, thanks for this. Prior to posting, I did sit down and go through about seven pages of DW comms without really finding anything that was quite what I was thinking of, but there are some I missed here. I shall poke about forthwith. Mwahaa.

Y'know, the other option would be to create one. There are enough of us here on PoT who either write, or aspire to write original fiction, to make a little community of our own.

Sometimes I do wish I could talk here in the comm about non-DA matters.

*speculative expression*

I'm game if you are, m'dear. No idea how to actually do it, but willing to learn!

Maybe ask Shimmy? She's done a spectacular job setting this one up. (Lenna too, but unless I'm mistaken Shimmy did a lot of the initial setup)

I will. Shall poke around and ask shtooopeeed questions. I found the 'create community' bit on the menu, but I'm scared of pressing any make-things-go stuff 'til I know what it's going to do. (Yes, you may all point and laugh.)

*shakes head* no laughing here, I'd be exactly the same.

The community is a big part of what attracts me to fanfic, it's true. I love ficcing and I'm grateful to itl it's *definitely* strengthened my writing skills over the years. Dialogue used to be my weakest point, and now it's one of my stronger skills, and that really shows in my original stories. There's no community for my original writing, aside from a small self-created one between me and the people who proofread/beta/ideas-bounce for me, which is pretty controlled, unlike fic communities, which explode into awesome. I *have* seen huge communities form around original work, if 1) the work is good (of course) and 2) becomes known and 3) the author is willing/able to share it (either because they are published, are never going to bother to publish, or just don't care one way or the other). An example is Lisa Mantchev and her book Eyes Like Stars and its world; a lot of people knew Lisa before she got published, and then other people joined in once she was, and we all have in common that we're addicted to cupcakes and nutso fairies and the mad Shakespearean world she's created, and she's just as addicted and happily romps with us. There's a community there, for certain! I wouldn't try to create something like that for my own original work because, er, I haven't the hutzpah and it's not that good yet (I hope someday). But then other writers prefer to be more reclusive and not interact with fans so much and get their community elsewhere, and that's cool too.

I guess the short version is I love them both, though they serve different purposes for me. =) But the fic-community feel is possible with original work too, I think.

Never underestimate the importance of idea-bouncing-beta-proofing networks!
Also, I will have to check out this cupcakes and nutso fairies world of which you speak.

I think I'd have to agree; there's so much room in fanfic to experiment and hone in on certain areas when you're writing, because pretty much whatever you do, you're still within the same broad framework of sources. Maybe that's what makes it feel like more a sandbox - and a friendlier, more welcoming sandbox, perhaps - than trying to hammer out the same ideas in original fiction. If that makes sense.

Eyes Like Stars by Lisa Mantchev. Pirates, Shakespeare, fairies, and the deathly importance of the question of which is better, cake or pie. You know you want it. (seriously, it's an amazing book, one of the best and most imaginative I've ever read!)

Betareaders forever!

And yep, makes perfect sense. Fanfic is an excellent place for going "Gah, these writing skills of mine are weak, I shall HAMMER ON THEM until they're good!" and have fun while doing it. Plus lots of people who are obsessed with the same things I'm obsessed with. Rock.

Yeah, I completely agree that fanfiction is a great place for working on fundamentals. Betas are really willing to help, and you have all of the world and character building done for you, so there's comparatively little that you need to develop on your own.

My internet connection has been extremely erratic these past few days, so I've just ran across this thread.

I belong to two wonderful writers groups,(one more geared toward the business aspects of writing, and the other (a critique group which includes some members of the other) which focues on the love of craft. Both have wonderfully supportive people, and while we've had a bit of recent drama with some new members, most of us get along pretty well.

I think one advantage of fanfiction is that you can get almost immediate feedback on how people view a story. Something, that seems much harder to come by from original work that's published. Well, in theory, anyway. I've seen some great stories on fanfic that get hardly any reviews, which has to be a bit discouraging to the writer.

As far as writing is concerned, I don't try to treat my fanfic any differnt from my original work in terms trying to write the best story I can. In some ways, writing fanfic is easier since the world and it's 'rules' are already set-up. You know how magic is supposed to work, what the prevailing philosphies seem to be, the political/religious framework, etc. In other ways, it's more challenging, writing charcters so that they're 'in-character', yet have your own stamp on them.

I've used fanfic to experiment a bit with style and structure. And I like the idea of being able to do short, little character pieces that don't really have a plot, but let you get inside someones' skull to explore their feelings and opinions on an issue.

As for how groups/communities gel together, certainly a broad base of shared experience is crucial. But also, I think, is how the various personalities all mesh together. (Not to mention, that acting like mature adults helps, too.)

I would definitely agree with that. Fanfic has the ability to be both a sandbox for trying new things, and a 'safe' arena for playing with techniques and ideas in an existing framework - something much harder (I think) to do in orig. flash fiction, for example. Also, I think it does make you consider the nuts and bolts of character and world-building more... which is very useful (not to mention fun).

And hear, hear on mature adults! Oh, that would be nice.

World-building is one of the things I love about doing original work, the chance to 'play God(dess). And I agree with you about fanfic making you look at the nuts and bolts of that and character building. In order to write good fanfic, you have to take Bioware's characters and world apart to see what makes it tick.

OT: writers' comms, discussion & support

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